Feminist SF Wiki - User contributions [en]

User:Liz Henry

2025-12-29T17:35:00Z

Liz Henry:

Liz Was Here!

Contact info: liz@bookmaniac.org

blog: https://bookmaniac.org

[[category:Translators|Henry, Liz]]
[[category:Poets|Henry, Liz]]
[[category:Bloggers|Henry, Liz]][[category:FSFwikians]]

OMG WE GOT THE WIKI WORKING AGAIN!!!!!! With help from Riot Claude 4.5 (Dec. 29 2025) after the wiki was messed up by malware in late 2012.

(2012-ish project notes below)
Hmm, i'm working on this but not sure where to link it from: [[disability]]
Other projects: [[List of women of color writing SF]]

User:Liz Henry

2025-12-29T17:34:33Z

Liz Henry: refreshing page in 2025

Liz Was Here!

Contact info: liz@bookmaniac.org

blog: https://bookmaniac.org

[[category:Translators|Henry, Liz]]
[[category:Poets|Henry, Liz]]
[[category:Bloggers|Henry, Liz]][[category:FSFwikians]]

[[Mediawiki:Sidebar]]
OMG WE GOT THE WIKI WORKING AGAIN!!!!!! With help from Riot Claude 4.5 (Dec. 29 2025) after the wiki was messed up by malware in late 2012.

(2012-ish project notes below)
Hmm, i'm working on this but not sure where to link it from: [[disability]]
Other projects: [[List of women of color writing SF]]

Jeanne Gomoll

2012-09-09T18:53:19Z

Liz Henry: Added info for Jeanne's works and activities

Jeanne Gomoll is the designer of the "[[SpaceBabe]]" icon for the [[James Tiptree, Jr. Award]]. She was nominated twice for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fan Artist, in 1978 and 1980.

Gomoll was joint editor, with [[Janice Bogstad]], of ''[[Janus]]'' a feminist science fiction [[fanzine]] nominated three years running for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fanzine, in 1978, 1979 and 1980. She is the author of [[An Open Letter to Joanna Russ]], an influential essay, [http://www.geocities.com/athens/8720/letter.htm available online] and in Fanthology '87. She also authored the introduction to [[Helen Merrick]] and [[Tess Williams]]' [[Women of Other Worlds Excursions through SF and Feminism]], 1999.

Influential in beginning the mailing list [[FEM-SF]] and in planning every [[WisCon]]. Member of the [[Secret Feminist Cabal]]. Contributor to [[A Women's Apa]] and [[CRapa]]. Publisher of [[The Bakery Men Don't See]], nominated for a [[Hugo Award]] for Best Non-Fiction Book, and [[Her Smoke Rose up from Supper]].

==Awards and nominations==

* 1978, nominee for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fan Artist
* 1978, joint editor, with [[Janice Bogstad]], of ''[[Janus]]'', a nominee for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fanzine
* 1979, Fan Guest at ArmadilloCon 1
* 1979, joint editor, with Janice Bogstad, of ''Janus'', a nominee for the Hugo Award for Best Fanzine
* 1980, nominee for the Hugo Award for Best Fan Artist
* 1980, joint editor, with Janice Bogstad, of ''Janus'', a nominee for the Hugo Award for Best Fanzine
* 1987, elected winner of [[TAFF]] the Trans-Atlantic Fan Fund
* 1992, publisher of [[The Bakery Men Don't See]], a nominee for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Non-Fiction Book

==Publications and other works==

Artwork & Writing

* Editor, designer, layout, illustrations, essays and fiction for Janus (#1-18, 1975-80)
* Editorial collective member for Aurora (#19-26, 1981-90)
* Obsessions, apazine for A Women's Apa, (#1-29, 1976-1983)
* Shoreline, apazine, for the Cascade Regional Apa (#1-11, 1978-81)
* What Spare Time?!, personal zine, (#1-2, 1979)
* Cube, SF3 newszine (#1-13, 1982-1985) Subsequent issues edited by other SF3 members.
* Alcheringa, apazine, for Anzapa (#1, 1982)
* Whimsy, personal zine (#1-7, 1983-?)
* Allargando, apazine for Turbo-Charged Party Animal Apa, (#1-16, September 1986 to 1988)
* Taffiles, TAFF newsletter (#1-4, October 1987-June 1988)
* JGTaff, Taff auction catalog, 1988
* Union Street, apazine with Scott Custis for Turbo-Charged Party Animal Apa, (#1-111, September 1989 – present)
* Editor (with Diane Martin) and designer of The Bakery Men Don't See, cookbook and fund-raiser for the Tiptree Award, SF3, 1991
* Editor and designer of Her Smoke Rose Up from Supper, cookbook and fund-raiser for the Tiptree Award, SF3, 1993
* Corflu 10 publications, May 1993
* Khatru 3/4 reprinting, May 1993
* Grayscale, apazine for Intercourse, (#1-15, September 1996 – present)
* Many other WisCon and SF3 publications--pocket program books, dessert tickets, brochures, maps, grids, posters

===Artwork===

* Illustrations, t-shirt designs, posters and logos for WisCon and SF3 publications
* Illustrations for many other fanzines
* Design and cover art for The Cacher of the Rye, by Carl Brandon, Introduction by Terry Carr, Obsessive *Press, 1982
* Illustrations for The Silver Horse, by Elizabeth A. Lynn, Blue Jay Press, 1984
* Illustration for Arabesques, More Tales of the Arabian Nights, Avon, 1988
* Design of Women En Large, Images of Fat Nudes, photography by Laurie Toby Edison, text by Debbie Notkin, Books in Focus, 1994
* Design (with John Berry) of Flying Cups and Saucers: Gender Explorations in Science Fiction and Fantasy, edited by Debbie Notkin and the Secret Feminist Cabal
* Map of Shaftal for Laurie Marks' Elemental Logic series, http://lauriejmarks.com/shaftal/map1.html
* Cover art for Tomb of the Fathers, by Eleanor Arnason (Aqueduct Press, 2010)
* Web banners for WisCon, SF3 and Tiptree web pages

===Writing===

* Introduction: "Visualizing the Future," to Women of Other Worlds: Excursions through SF & Feminism, edited by Helen Merrick & Tess Williams, University of Western Australia Press, 1999

===Other activities===

* The Dead Cat Through History traveling slide show
* Cat-wrapping demonstrations
* The Trial of Scott Custis (on the charge of fannishness), WisCon program
* WisCon concom, WisCon 1-23 1974-1999. Programming, Publications, Art Show, Panelist
* WisCon chair, WisCon 20, 1995; WisCon 30, 2006.
* Corflu concom member, 1993
* Tiptree Award judge/coordinator 1994
* Tiptree Award motherboard member
* Tiptree Auction coordinator, WisCon

===Honors & Awards===

* Hugo nomination, fan artist (1978, 1979, 1980)
* Hugo nomination, fanzine (1978, 1980)
* Hugo nomination, nonfiction book (1992)
* FFAN awards, fan editor (1979, 1980)
* TAFF delegate, 1987–1988
* Armadillocon GoH (1979)
* Autoclave GoH (1979)
* Aquacon GoH (1981)
* Reinconation GoH (2000)
* WisCon 24 GoH (2000)
* Apollocon GoH (2011)

==External links==

* [http://www.unionstreetdesign.com/ Union Street Design]
* [http://www.sf3.org/wiscon/24/jeanne.html Biography @ SF3]
* "[http://www.kelleyeskridge.com/essays/the-erotics-of-gender-ambiguity/ The Erotics of Gender Ambiguity], an online symposium with [[L. Timmel Duchamp]], [[Janet Barron]], [[Jeanne Gomoll]], [[Nicola Griffith]], [[Suzy McKee Charnas]], [[Rebecca Holden]], [[Elisabeth Vonarburg]], [[Janet Lafler]], [[Sylvia Kelso]], and [[Brian Attebery]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Gomoll, Jeanne}}

[[Category:Artists]]
[[Category:Fans]]
[[Category:Editors]]
[[Category:Publishers (people)]]
[[Category:WisCon people]]
[[Category:Tiptree people]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[category:WisCon Guests of Honor]]
[[Category:1951 births]]
[[category:Women by name]]
[[category:People by name]]

Janus

2012-09-01T15:41:06Z

Liz Henry: Added a link to the PDFs for Janus and Aurora

'''''Janus''''' was a well-known feminist science fiction [[fanzine]] edited by [[Jeanne Gomoll]] and [[Janice Bogstad]]. ''Janus'' was nominated three years running for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fanzine, in 1978, 1979 and 1980. The fanzine later morphed into ''Aurora''.

[[Jeanne Gomoll]] says of ''Janus'':

<blockquote>Janus, the [[fanzine]] I worked on in the '70s (and later became Aurora), was one of the most well-known zines of the time, and only the second feminist SF zine ever to be published. (The first was [[Amanda Bankier]]'s short-lived ''[[The Witch and the Chameleon]]''.) Janus earned three [[Hugo Award|Hugo]] nominations and raised a hue and cry for suspected, vile, "[[feminist conspiracies|block voting]]." People – it was alleged – were voting based on their interests and politics, and if Janus hadn't been feminist-oriented, it wouldn't have been nominated for a Hugo. Of course, we didn't agree; there was no [[feminist conspiracy|conspiracy]]. But no matter what the reasons were for Janus's Hugo nominations, these slurs and accusations only pointed out the importance of the [[women's movement in fandom]], even in the opinions of its detractors.</blockquote>

==Awards and nominations==

* 1978, nominee for the [[Hugo Award]] for Best Fanzine
* 1979, nominee for the Hugo Award for Best Fanzine
* 1980, nominee for the Hugo Award for Best Fanzine

==External links==
* http://sf3.org/history/janus-aurora-covers/ - all 26 issues of Janus and Aurora (PDF)

[[category:Fanzines]]
[[Category:Journals]]
[[category:Journals of SF studies]]
[[category:Works of feminist SF studies]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Main Page

2011-06-03T02:55:15Z

Liz Henry: spam fight

{{FSFwiki head}}

{{FrontFeature
| title = [[On Joanna Russ]]
| author = [[Farah Mendlesohn]]
| ISBN = 9780819569028
| notes = A 2009 collection of critical essays on one of the founding mothers of feminist science fiction.
| image = [[Image:On_Joanna_Russ.jpg|125px]]
}}

<center><big><big><big>a secret conspiracy</big></big></big></center>

; Awards for women!
* [[Works by women eligible for 2010 SF Awards|List fiction and non-fiction published in 2009 that is eligible for 2010 SF awards.]]
* [[Women eligible for 2010 SF Awards|Know of a woman who did work that makes her eligible for SF awards? List her here!]]
* [[Works by women eligible for 2011 SF Awards|List fiction and non-fiction published in 2010 that is eligible for 2011 SF awards.]]
* [[Women eligible for 2011 SF Awards|Know of a woman who did work that makes her eligible for SF awards? List her here!]]

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==External Links==

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T16:23:37Z

Liz Henry: /* questions from the audience. */

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: At one point you said sf was a religious literature. Can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase, I don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. The sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. It's -- the writers' heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope I think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes, it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s Tales of the Black Widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the waiter, Henry... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in The Singing Bell, if you know the story. Well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month, taking air and water and food and warmth with him. But there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: There's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. When you suddenly understand something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. In philosophical Heideggerian terms you "remember being".

JR: Something like that, yes.

sd: Many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of [[We Who Are About To. . .]] when the protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, all of which she's heard before but she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: Hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: Okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: We were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and I'd mentioned your ending to We Who Are About To...

jr: It's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: Kind of like something else I'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / Guns Germs & Steel -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess Radegunde which is besieged by Norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. This was very powerful when I first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of We Who Are About To, we see the same concept being dramatized in the story. Is that a phrase or a concept that has particular resonance to you?

jr: I'm a mystic temperamentally, but atheistic, I have no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism and Lao Tse. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be B ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. A man who wanted to be a wonderful shooter of bows and arrows went to see the greatest of these people who lived on top of a mountain. They told him first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. And coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those.

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. It's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of [[Childhood's End]]. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes nothing but light.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: I think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. And i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate between seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you think the same age range applies to science fiction?

jr: No.

SD: Okay...

JR: You learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. I don't know if this happens in other literature, but it does happen in sf.

SD: If all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then I think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: Yes I've heard that from you before

sd: Yes I'm not saying anything here I haven't said before. You were a Westinghouse winner in high school. Can you tell us about the project?

jr: My dad built a long box for me with lights at the top and I grew a fungus in each compartment. And each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. Fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. ''Aspergillis janus'', Janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: Did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: I didn't. By the time I finished I thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: There's a story of yours I've always been very fond of a story called Leapside. Basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: No it's not in the story it's the title of the story. And it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. And whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. The story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: Leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: Any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of?

JR: Hard to say - things change as time goes by. I will say this, I read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: I have a few of those and think "did I wrote that?" I have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: I think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers I go back to read. Can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... I had seriously lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite little things you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is still just very very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: Well that's a GREAT thing.

SD: Yes but I miss it. People now read [[Villette]] or [[Middlemarch]] which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T16:18:58Z

Liz Henry: /* And Chaos Died */

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: At one point you said sf was a religious literature. Can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase, I don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. The sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. It's -- the writers' heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope I think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes, it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s Tales of the Black Widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the waiter, Henry... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in The Singing Bell, if you know the story. Well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month, taking air and water and food and warmth with him. But there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: There's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. When you suddenly understand something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. In philosophical Heideggerian terms you "remember being".

JR: Something like that, yes.

sd: Many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of [[We Who Are About To. . .]] when the protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, all of which she's heard before but she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: Hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: Okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: We were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and I'd mentioned your ending to We Who Are About To...

jr: It's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: Kind of like something else I'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / Guns Germs & Steel -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess Radegunde which is besieged by Norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. This was very powerful when I first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of We Who Are About To, we see the same concept being dramatized in the story. Is that a phrase or a concept that has particular resonance to you?

jr: I'm a mystic temperamentally, but atheistic, I have no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism and Lao Tse. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be B ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. A man who wanted to be a wonderful shooter of bows and arrows went to see the greatest of these people who lived on top of a mountain. They told him first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. And coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those.

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. It's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of [[Childhood's End]]. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes nothing but light.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: I think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. And i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate between seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you think the same age range applies to science fiction?

jr: No.

SD: Okay...

JR: You learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. I don't know if this happens in other literature, but it does happen in sf.

SD: If all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then I think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: Yes I've heard that from you before

sd: Yes I'm not saying anything here I haven't said before. You were a Westinghouse winner in high school. Can you tell us about the project?

jr: My dad built a long box for me with lights at the top and I grew a fungus in each compartment. And each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. Fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. ''Aspergillis janus'', Janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: Did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: I didn't. By the time I finished I thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: There's a story of yours I've always been very fond of a story called Leapside. Basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: No it's not in the story it's the title of the story. And it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. And whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. The story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: Leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: Any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of?

JR: Hard to say - things change as time goes by. I will say this, I read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: I have a few of those and think "did I wrote that?" I have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: I think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers I go back to read. Can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... I had seriously lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite little things you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is still just very very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T16:17:24Z

Liz Henry: /* leapside */

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: At one point you said sf was a religious literature. Can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase, I don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. The sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. It's -- the writers' heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope I think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes, it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s Tales of the Black Widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the waiter, Henry... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in The Singing Bell, if you know the story. Well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month, taking air and water and food and warmth with him. But there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: There's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. When you suddenly understand something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. In philosophical Heideggerian terms you "remember being".

JR: Something like that, yes.

sd: Many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of [[We Who Are About To. . .]] when the protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, all of which she's heard before but she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: Hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: Okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: We were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and I'd mentioned your ending to We Who Are About To...

jr: It's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: Kind of like something else I'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / Guns Germs & Steel -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess Radegunde which is besieged by Norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. This was very powerful when I first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of We Who Are About To, we see the same concept being dramatized in the story. Is that a phrase or a concept that has particular resonance to you?

jr: I'm a mystic temperamentally, but atheistic, I have no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism and Lao Tse. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be B ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. A man who wanted to be a wonderful shooter of bows and arrows went to see the greatest of these people who lived on top of a mountain. They told him first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. And coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those.

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. It's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of [[Childhood's End]]. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes nothing but light.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: I think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. And i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate between seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you think the same age range applies to science fiction?

jr: No.

SD: Okay...

JR: You learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. I don't know if this happens in other literature, but it does happen in sf.

SD: If all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then I think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: Yes I've heard that from you before

sd: Yes I'm not saying anything here I haven't said before. You were a Westinghouse winner in high school. Can you tell us about the project?

jr: My dad built a long box for me with lights at the top and I grew a fungus in each compartment. And each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. Fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. ''Aspergillis janus'', Janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: Did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: I didn't. By the time I finished I thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: There's a story of yours I've always been very fond of a story called Leapside. Basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: No it's not in the story it's the title of the story. And it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. And whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. The story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: Leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: Any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of?

JR: Hard to say - things change as time goes by. I will say this, I read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: I have a few of those and think "did I wrote that?" I have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: I think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers I go back to read. Can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T16:14:58Z

Liz Henry: /* childhood influence on writing */

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: At one point you said sf was a religious literature. Can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase, I don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. The sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. It's -- the writers' heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope I think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes, it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s Tales of the Black Widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the waiter, Henry... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in The Singing Bell, if you know the story. Well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month, taking air and water and food and warmth with him. But there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: There's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. When you suddenly understand something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. In philosophical Heideggerian terms you "remember being".

JR: Something like that, yes.

sd: Many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of [[We Who Are About To. . .]] when the protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, all of which she's heard before but she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: Hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: Okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: We were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and I'd mentioned your ending to We Who Are About To...

jr: It's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: Kind of like something else I'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / Guns Germs & Steel -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess Radegunde which is besieged by Norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. This was very powerful when I first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of We Who Are About To, we see the same concept being dramatized in the story. Is that a phrase or a concept that has particular resonance to you?

jr: I'm a mystic temperamentally, but atheistic, I have no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism and Lao Tse. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be B ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. A man who wanted to be a wonderful shooter of bows and arrows went to see the greatest of these people who lived on top of a mountain. They told him first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. And coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those.

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. It's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of [[Childhood's End]]. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes nothing but light.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: I think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. And i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate between seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you think the same age range applies to science fiction?

jr: No.

SD: Okay...

JR: You learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. I don't know if this happens in other literature, but it does happen in sf.

SD: If all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then I think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: Yes I've heard that from you before

sd: Yes I'm not saying anything here I haven't said before. You were a Westinghouse winner in high school. Can you tell us about the project?

jr: My dad built a long box for me with lights at the top and I grew a fungus in each compartment. And each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. Fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. ''Aspergillis janus'', Janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: Did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: I didn't. By the time I finished I thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T16:11:58Z

Liz Henry: /* SF as religious literature */ merging transcriptions

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: At one point you said sf was a religious literature. Can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase, I don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. The sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. It's -- the writers' heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope I think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes, it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s Tales of the Black Widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the waiter, Henry... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in The Singing Bell, if you know the story. Well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month, taking air and water and food and warmth with him. But there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: There's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. When you suddenly understand something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. In philosophical Heideggerian terms you "remember being".

JR: Something like that, yes.

sd: Many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of [[We Who Are About To. . .]] when the protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, all of which she's heard before but she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: Hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: Okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: We were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and I'd mentioned your ending to We Who Are About To...

jr: It's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: Kind of like something else I'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / Guns Germs & Steel -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess Radegunde which is besieged by Norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. This was very powerful when I first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of We Who Are About To, we see the same concept being dramatized in the story. Is that a phrase or a concept that has particular resonance to you?

jr: I'm a mystic temperamentally, but atheistic, I have no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism and Lao Tse. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be B ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. A man who wanted to be a wonderful shooter of bows and arrows went to see the greatest of these people who lived on top of a mountain. They told him first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. And coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those.

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. It's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of [[Childhood's End]]. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes nothing but light.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T15:59:43Z

Liz Henry: /* fantasy */ Merging transcripts, fixing typos

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: What about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned Terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: I think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. I don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. Several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that I don't know is in science fiction. Fantasy has got it. See, I have been out of the loop for a long time but I know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: Yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. I think a lot of people are aware of that. It makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the edges of.

jr: Yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

SD: You mentioned Deathswatch?

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / Deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. That was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. It was a pun.

sd: Yes i see.

jr: So if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: We have been told! What else has been going on in your life, what interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months?

jr: Mostly I have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. Something I didn't used to have to do. ... I do exercise it. Trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. Very boring. They really are but they work they do good things so I keep doing them. There gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors and pharmacists than anyone else and that is very boring.

sd: I gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: Not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: Talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: I found out once I got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. I always used to wonder why when I finished writing I was so tired; I was only sitting down and writing. But now I can't concentrate long enough to do this. And I can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. And if you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. It's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. It took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: I find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. Really. Go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: Do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: Yeah, when you were too busy.

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T03:38:17Z

Liz Henry: /* aging */

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: You make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. When we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned the general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: That struck me among other things because I have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. And I have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. I don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. One of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: She has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which I love. Just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. She wrote one story called The Hilton's Holiday (http://www.accuracyproject.org/t-Jewett-TheHiltonsHoliday.html) which is almost heartbreaking because it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. I can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. The other one - good lord - I can't remember her name.

sd: Are these writers, are you particularly interested in Jewett, because of how she deals with age?

jr: Not just age, she deals with limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: How do you experience limitations of old age - I'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: I'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. Thought I would put up signs around the house that said 'You are SEVENTY. Stop it!'

(laughter)

jr: You learn things you can't do.

sd: Things take longer. Things you used to do in 2-4 days now take 4-6 days.

jr: Things I don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. I just had surgery.

SD: How did it go?

JR: Fine. But you don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: Odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: By the way I should say that I love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. The woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]].

SD: What?

LQ: Elizabeth Stuart Phelps!!!

JR: I'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. Not big things b/c she's writing about New englanders too, and these people are in a backwater. The women are especially having a tough time of it because they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: There is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. Any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: No I don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T03:26:05Z

Liz Henry: /* Buffy */ Merging transcripts

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to, to give you solace or what have you?

JR: Well, some of the feminists.

SD: Oh!!! Like who?

JR: Well, a book called ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. I can't really think of it. Actually I don't read nearly as much as I used to. It's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. And -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- I found that after having a VCR for several years you can treat it just as a book. It makes a vhs just like a book. And now I have a dvd player. I have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

(Wild applause. Huge cheer around the room!)

SD: You have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that. Even though it was created by a guy, Joss Weedon, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic. It's adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy. Humor! And it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to watch this, you must - and I did and I loved it. I collected them on vhs tapes and I loved them and now I've bought them on dvd. And some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named Spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. He was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'Vampires i have known.'

jr: I won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

jr: I like the ways the characters develop and the way things happen. Very well done.

sd: Anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: In Buffy?

sd: Yes in Buffy!

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. It has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. There're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. Like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & American but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. Very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: you make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. when we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: that struck me among other things b/c i have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. and i have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. i don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. one of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: she has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which i love. just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. she wrote one story called the ?hellmouth holiday? which is almost heartbreaking b/c it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. i can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. the other one - good lord - i can't remember her name.

sd: are these writers, are you particularly interested in jewett, b/c of how she deals w/ age

jr: not just age, she deals w/ limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: how do you experience limitations of old age - i'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: i'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. thought i would put up signs around the house that said 'you are 70. stop it!'

laughter

jr: learn things you can't do

sd: or things you used to do 2-4 days now take 4-6 days

jr: things i don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. just had surgery. don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: by the way i should say that i love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]]. i'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. not big things b/c she's writing about new englanders too, and these people are in a backwater, and the women are especially having a tough time of it b/c they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: there is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: no i don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T03:20:01Z

Liz Henry: /* Authors you return to? */ Merging transcripts, fixing typos

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In SF when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young girl saying 'I did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I won't either. I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer, frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in English if you can think of Middle English as English. The three men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to do give you solace or what have you.

JR: well some of the feminists.

SD: Like who

JR: ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. i can't really think of it. actually i don't read nearly as much as i used to. it's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. and -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- i found that after having a vcr for several years you can treat it just as a book. it makes a vhs just like a book. and now i have a dvd player . i have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

wild applause.

SD: you have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that ... even though it was created by a guy, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic, adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy, and it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to write this and you must - and i did and i loved it - i collected them on vhs tapes and i loved them and now i've bought them on dvd. and some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. he was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'vampires i have known.'

jr: i won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

sd: anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: in buffy

sd: yes in buffy

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. it has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. there're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & american but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: you make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. when we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: that struck me among other things b/c i have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. and i have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. i don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. one of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: she has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which i love. just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. she wrote one story called the ?hellmouth holiday? which is almost heartbreaking b/c it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. i can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. the other one - good lord - i can't remember her name.

sd: are these writers, are you particularly interested in jewett, b/c of how she deals w/ age

jr: not just age, she deals w/ limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: how do you experience limitations of old age - i'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: i'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. thought i would put up signs around the house that said 'you are 70. stop it!'

laughter

jr: learn things you can't do

sd: or things you used to do 2-4 days now take 4-6 days

jr: things i don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. just had surgery. don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: by the way i should say that i love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]]. i'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. not big things b/c she's writing about new englanders too, and these people are in a backwater, and the women are especially having a tough time of it b/c they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: there is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: no i don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-30T03:17:56Z

Liz Henry: /* economics of writing */ merging transcripts

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: You wanted to talk about the double bind situation...

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In sf when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young man saying 'i did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in english if you can think of middle english as english. The 3 men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to do give you solace or what have you.

JR: well some of the feminists.

SD: Like who

JR: ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. i can't really think of it. actually i don't read nearly as much as i used to. it's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. and -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- i found that after having a vcr for several years you can treat it just as a book. it makes a vhs just like a book. and now i have a dvd player . i have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

wild applause.

SD: you have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that ... even though it was created by a guy, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic, adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy, and it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to write this and you must - and i did and i loved it - i collected them on vhs tapes and i loved them and now i've bought them on dvd. and some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. he was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'vampires i have known.'

jr: i won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

sd: anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: in buffy

sd: yes in buffy

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. it has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. there're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & american but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: you make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. when we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: that struck me among other things b/c i have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. and i have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. i don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. one of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: she has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which i love. just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. she wrote one story called the ?hellmouth holiday? which is almost heartbreaking b/c it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. i can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. the other one - good lord - i can't remember her name.

sd: are these writers, are you particularly interested in jewett, b/c of how she deals w/ age

jr: not just age, she deals w/ limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: how do you experience limitations of old age - i'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: i'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. thought i would put up signs around the house that said 'you are 70. stop it!'

laughter

jr: learn things you can't do

sd: or things you used to do 2-4 days now take 4-6 days

jr: things i don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. just had surgery. don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: by the way i should say that i love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]]. i'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. not big things b/c she's writing about new englanders too, and these people are in a backwater, and the women are especially having a tough time of it b/c they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: there is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: no i don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-29T22:28:32Z

Liz Henry: /* economics of writing */ Merging with my transcript, adding small details

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: double bind situation

JR: Yes that's very important, rather awful. It's not the writers' fault. It's the economics of publishing now. What I've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff, really good stuff. I won't name names. And then they say, "Okay, I can make a living writing." But they then find themselves having to work too fast. Words should not only be thought they should be felt through and there just isn't enough time. People in that bind never do great stuff again. And if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what I damn well please, you end up working too damn hard, because it's too hard.

SD: Yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and I ended up in a mental hospital. Yeah it is a double bind and it is too easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. Any thoughts on changing it, on what is to be done about it?

JR: No I don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ...It's a need for constant entertainment in niche markets. That didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like we end up with this Gor of Gor situation, and the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. But it used to be that you had to write what was being written and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy. People used to have to put up with what books they got, and made do.

SD: Now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what I always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In sf when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young man saying 'i did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in english if you can think of middle english as english. The 3 men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to do give you solace or what have you.

JR: well some of the feminists.

SD: Like who

JR: ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. i can't really think of it. actually i don't read nearly as much as i used to. it's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. and -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- i found that after having a vcr for several years you can treat it just as a book. it makes a vhs just like a book. and now i have a dvd player . i have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

wild applause.

SD: you have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that ... even though it was created by a guy, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic, adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy, and it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to write this and you must - and i did and i loved it - i collected them on vhs tapes and i loved them and now i've bought them on dvd. and some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. he was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'vampires i have known.'

jr: i won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

sd: anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: in buffy

sd: yes in buffy

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. it has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. there're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & american but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: you make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. when we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: that struck me among other things b/c i have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. and i have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. i don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. one of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: she has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which i love. just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. she wrote one story called the ?hellmouth holiday? which is almost heartbreaking b/c it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. i can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. the other one - good lord - i can't remember her name.

sd: are these writers, are you particularly interested in jewett, b/c of how she deals w/ age

jr: not just age, she deals w/ limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: how do you experience limitations of old age - i'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: i'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. thought i would put up signs around the house that said 'you are 70. stop it!'

laughter

jr: learn things you can't do

sd: or things you used to do 2-4 days now take 4-6 days

jr: things i don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. just had surgery. don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: by the way i should say that i love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]]. i'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. not big things b/c she's writing about new englanders too, and these people are in a backwater, and the women are especially having a tough time of it b/c they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: there is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: no i don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Joanna Russ Interview with Samuel Delany (WisCon 30 event)

2011-04-29T22:23:28Z

Liz Henry: /* beginning */ adding details and merging with my live transcription

==Participants==
[[Joanna Russ]] and [[Samuel R. Delany]]. Sponsored by [[Broad Universe]]

==Set-Up==
Chip Delany was in a chair at the front of the room with a microphone. Joanna Russ was on a phone, connected to house sound system. On the screen was slowly flashing covers of Russ's novels.

==Transcript/Notes==
''Original transcript by Laura Quilter -- please fill in, correct, amend as needed''

=== beginning ===
[[Joanna Russ]]: I'm as close to phone as I can get

on screen: Joanna Russ & Samuel Delany - brought to you by Broad Universe

[[Samuel R. Delany]]: In my humble opinion Joanna Russ is simply one of the most important writers who has written in the United States in the last 50 years. She [applause] this is a writer who has produced works on the level of --

JR: hello? hello! (laughter in audience)

SD: -- produced works on level of [[Willa Cather]], James Joyce - Davenport, William Gass ...

JR: Samuel, I can barely hear you.

SD: Well you & I may have difficulty hearing one another but the audience can.

SD: ... and she writes, among other things, sentences that are absolutely spectacular. A description of a spaceship which I quote endlessly to my writing students at Temple University where she's describing a star the big one was the platonic idea of a pebble carried inside out born of a computer and aspiring to the condition of mechanical opera. That is such a luscious sentence I don't think I will ever be the same.

SD: Also there's a range & intensity of concern for the problems of women. Feminism is to Joanna Russ the way marxism was to the great german writer [[Bertoldt Brecht]]. It is something innate to the concerns, not something that can be dismissed. Not something - she makes - it already is of course incredibly important aspect of the world possibly one of THE most important aspects of the world -- but she foregrounds that importance, makes us understand it, in terms of the social portraits that she creates in her work.

SD: Her first story, 'custom stale- appeared in m of f&sf in 1959 i believe that was - and went on to produce many many other wonderful stories, life for Emily, and then a series of stories that the barbarian; "[[I Thought She Was Afeared Til She Stroked My Beard]]" such a wonderful title that it had to be changed to ... stroke my cherry ... ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]'', which Joanna calls pre-feminist and I call spectacular story, ... ''[[We Who Are About To]]'' (one of my personal favorites) ''[[The Two of Them]]'', ''[[On Strike Against God]]'', ... etc. ... really brilliant study. so Joanna what are some of the things you've been thinking about lately.

JR: I don't know if I can tell you I'm still basking in all your praise.

SD: You deserve to bask. Tell us a little bit about where you're living. What is Tucson like?

JR: Tucson is getting to a be a rather sprawling small city. Desert. Very hot in the summer, over 100 degrees. I can see the mountains from the windows in my bedroom. I just love it.

SD: Do you like, do you enjoy Tucson?

JR: yes - not the city so much but the location and the skies, oh the skies. my friend: "yes Tucson specializes in that" [the skies]

===economics of writing===
SD: double bind situation

JR: yes that's awful. it's not the writers' fault. it's the economics of publishing now. what i've seen again and again is that a writer will do very fine early stuff really good stuff. and say okay I can make a living writing. but they then find themselves having to work too fast. words should not only be thought they should be felt thru and there just isn't enough time. people in that bind never do great stuff again. and if you don't do that, if you say okay i will keep my day job as they used to say in the theater, and i will just write what i damn well please, you end up working too hard.

SD: yes I can remember my first 5 books in 3 years and i ended up in a mental hospital. yeah it is a double bind and it is to easy to, you end up blaming yourself for it. any thoughts on changing it?

JR: no i don't know, I think it is an industrial capitalist problem. (applause) ... niche markets. didn't used to be true. 85 different little magazines all doing something different. A young man wrote to me and said that he had read Alyx and he liked it and he read another book of mine and he was shocked & horrified to discover that it wasn't the same thing. I know that's funny but it's like gor of gor the 56th book of the series and people will buy these things because they're familiar. but it used to be that you had to write what was being written a and it was crummy but it was a different kind of crummy.

SD: now authors are production points for a product rather than an adventure you get interested in following, which is what i always thought authors should be, adventures you follow to see where they go. What are some of the authors you find yourself returning to and reading whether fantasy/sf or other journals?

===Authors you return to?===
JR: Mixed bag. In sf when I was younger I loved [[Robert A. Heinlein|Heinlein]] because he was always doing something different, and the SF didn't disappear after the beginning of the book, it was being carried thru all the way. Like the young man saying 'i did divorce my parents' - remember that?

SD: Yes I will never forget it.

JR: I go back to ... and some of [[Arthur C. Clarke|Clarke]]'s short stories and Chaucer frankly.

SD: Yes you've always talked about Chaucer -- he comes up again & again. What interests you about a classical writer like [[Geoffrey Chaucer]]?

JR: He has written some of the most perfect short stories in english if you can think of middle english as english. The 3 men who go out to kill death is absolutely a smashing thing, the shape of the story is perfect. ... The Pardoner's Tale.

=== Buffy ===
SD: I'll go back and take a look at that one. Any other writers you find yourself returning to do give you solace or what have you.

JR: well some of the feminists.

SD: Like who

JR: ''[[The Chalice and the Blade]]'' which has marvelous early christian writing in it. i can't really think of it. actually i don't read nearly as much as i used to. it's very annoying to have to get up every 20 minutes. and -- wait a minute -- there's a punch line -- i found that after having a vcr for several years you can treat it just as a book. it makes a vhs just like a book. and now i have a dvd player . i have been going mad about [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffy]].

wild applause.

SD: you have a lot of friends.

JR: I'm glad of that ... even though it was created by a guy, it was one of those tv shows aimed directly at women, and it is NOT domestic, adventurous, and horror fiction, and comedy, and it's very well written I'll say. A feminist friend of mine wrote me from Philadelphia and said you have to write this and you must - and i did and i loved it - i collected them on vhs tapes and i loved them and now i've bought them on dvd. and some of the things they talk about are extremely funny. There is a male character named spike who is a vampire - he is a sex object. he was doing an interview - telling about going to cons - and a whole bunch of girls who tried to tear his clothes off.

sd: 'vampires i have known.'

jr: i won't do it - very carefully done to make him a glamorous sexpot.

sd: anything else you want to remind us of?

jr: in buffy

sd: yes in buffy

jr: oh my gosh i don't know where to start. it's present-day setting. it has -- as i said it's a woman's thing, or female thing. there're these 3 women with one guy who's a friend and they give actresses wonderful things to do. like [[Anya]] the ex-vengeance demon who's trying to learn to be human and doesn't do it quite well. She has recently found out that not only is she human & american but also a capitalist. And these are all on the same level. very funny at times because trying to be a shopkeeper, she knows nothing about any of this, and has to learn.

===aging===
SD: you make me want to go back & rewatch some episodes. when we were talking about things to talk about, you mentioned general problems of growing older as something we all do.

JR: that struck me among other things b/c i have arthritis and chronic fatigue syndrome. and i have begun to understand the kind of writers who write about limitations and mortality. i don't have the books with me i forgot to bring them into the bedroom. but there are sort of two possibilities at least two for writers. one of them was [[Sarah Orne Jewett]].

sd: ''[[Country of the Pointed Firs]]''

jr: she has this sense of characters, she does not condescend to them, which i love. just when you think you can look down on them they are smarter than you are. she wrote one story called the ?hellmouth holiday? which is almost heartbreaking b/c it's such a perfect day and it will never be repeated. i can't tell you the story b/c i will gobble if i do. the other one - good lord - i can't remember her name.

sd: are these writers, are you particularly interested in jewett, b/c of how she deals w/ age

jr: not just age, she deals w/ limitations of all kinds .. . mortality in particular.

sd: how do you experience limitations of old age - i'm 64 and can't do what i did before.

jr: i'm 69 and can't do what i sued to do before. thought i would put up signs around the house that said 'you are 70. stop it!'

laughter

jr: learn things you can't do

sd: or things you used to do 2-4 days now take 4-6 days

jr: things i don't dare to do. .... turning bionic part by part. just had surgery. don't go up a ladder; if you fall down you don't have muscles to cushion your body.

sd: odd thing to get used to that things are not there.

JR: by the way i should say that i love this kind of writing but it's not better than other kinds, it's just different. woman who wrote The Story of Avis / [[Elizabeth Stuart Phelps]]. i'm going to bring her up as another layer of the 19th century - and she writes about heroism; incredibly heroic achievements. not big things b/c she's writing about new englanders too, and these people are in a backwater, and the women are especially having a tough time of it b/c they have to marry and becomes wives and what gets them is finances.

sd: there is that way about how good fiction has always been about money aspects of money having it or not and what that does to you something yr own fiction has always been very much aware of. any thoughts about money and storytelling.

jr: no i don't think so. not at the moment.

===fantasy===
sd: what about some of the fantasy stories that you have, you mentioned terri Windling who is here today, you mentioned [[Terri Windling]]'s best fantasy collection and some thoughts you had about that.

jr: i think there's a lot of very fine fantasy being written. i don't mean unicorns & warlocks, but fantasy that comes into ordinary life. several of them live in toronto - a kind of vitality there that i don't know is in science fiction. see i have been out of the loop for a long time but i know that some of these fantasy stories are just thrilling.

sd: yeah there is a feeling that some of the energy that was in sf for a long time may have moved over to fantasy. it makes it a very interesting field for in my case to be rubbing up against the ages of

jr: yes thinking about your tales of [[Neveryon]] / boy does that resemble [[tolkien]] much more

jr: [[Esther Friesner]] is the queen of parody / deathswatch - this was your dark lord fairy princess, oh it was hysterical, it was just luscious. that was swatch as in a swatch of fabric. it was a pun.

sd: yes i see.

jr: so if you see any parodies by Friesner read them.

sd: we have been told. what else has been going on in your life of interests occupying your mind for past days weeks months

jr: mostly i have to keep about taking care of my body & keeping it functional & so forth. something i didn't used to have to do. ... i do exercise it. trunk exercises in morning and hip exercises in afternoon. ahh. very boring. they really are but they work they do good things so i keep doing them. there gets to be a point in your social life is much more with doctors than anyone else.

sd: i gather you're not doing much writing.

jr: not doing any - haven't been doing any for 10 years.

sd: talk about transition from someone doing writing to not

jr: i found out once i got CFS that writing takes an enormous amount of energy, it takes concentration, and this is a physical thing. i always used to wonder why when i finished writing i was so tired; i was only sitting down and writing. but now i can't concentrate long enough to do this. and i can't keep a whole thing in my head at the same time. and i f you're writing a novel you're keeping stuff in the back of your head for a year or two. and it's very difficult to find suddenly you can't do that. it took about oh let's see 8 or 9 years for me to kind of live with that comfortably.

sd: it's something that one way or another every writer will eventually have to go thru

jr: i find that the real solution is to be very self-indulgent. really. go to thrift shops, read books, watch tv, talk to your friends.

sd: do all those fun things that you weren't doing

jr: yeah when you were too busy

===SF as religious literature===
sd: at one point you said sf was a religious literature. can you comment on that?

jr: Well there's the old phrase i don't know if it's still current, sense of wonder. the sense of wonder of awe of the hugeness of the universe, it comes up in all sorts of places. "[[The Million Names of God" / [[Arthur Clarke]]. or 2001. it's -- writer's heroes, the protagonists tended to turn into the new messiah in the last page.

sd: Yes that's a fairly common trope i think we call it in sf.

jr: Yes it was a feeling of awe and wonder and gorgeousness and complexity.

JR: I've just been rereading [[Isaac Asimov|Asimov]]'s tales of the black widowers - someone presents a problem to a bunch of science fiction guys. and the one who always solves it is the ... ... absolute stunner. it's too complicated to go into here but he did something like that in the singing veisl if you know the story. well it hinges on someone who goes to the moon for a month ... air and water and food and warmth with him. but there's one thing he can't take with him - the earth's gravitational field - and that is how the whole story is solved suddenly at the end and it just gives you chills when he does it right.

sd: there's something about solving anything that makes you closer to the universe. when you suddenly understanding something that you were butting your head up against you're suddenly closer to the way things work. in philosophical Heideggerian terms you remember being the way

sd: many moments in your own fiction when this kind of thing happens, certainly spectacularly presented in language toward end of we who are about to when protagonist is starving herself to death and she has vision of agape, hears music of spheres, she's never experienced them at that intensity.

jr: hold on a moment i'll be right back.

... JR: i'm coming back. [applause]

SD: okay joanna.

JR: I found the other book. the other writer is [[Mary Wilkins Freeman]]. she's the one who writes about heroism. anyway - Whoof! [JR may have been sitting down]- where were we.

sd: we were talking about sf your comment about sf as a religious literature. and i'd mentioned your ending to we who are about to

jr: it's interesting to me that one of the best editors in the field [[David Hartwell]] has a PhD in medieval studies.

sd: [[green knight]]

jr: kind of like something else i'd love to point out - people who seem to understand evolution of human society the best are evolutionary biologists like [[Stephen Jay Gould]] - [[Jared Diamond]] / guns diamonds & germans -- they go right to the root of things without even having to read [[Marx]]. He says why was the first place where civilization developed first - wild crops that could be domesticated - animals useful that way. That's why. Let's go on - this is going off on a digression.

sd: Thinking of comments from your writing that stuck with me, one of them, related to this, [[Souls (novella)|Souls]] - that extraordinary novella about a medieval convent in which is run by the abbess radagunda which is besieged by norse vikings and basically she saves the place more or less or makes several attempts to save the people, and the abbess some of whom may not know the story - the abbess is an alien getting in touch with her inner alien - one night she's musing in her inner monologue, the people want religion that gives and gives but the true god is gods who take and take until there is nothing left but god. this was very powerful when i first read it and it remains powerful for me even today. I think in terms of the ending of we who are about to - phrase particularly resonant to you?

jr: temperamentally atheistic, no religion. One of the things I loved when I found it in college was information about Taoism. They are mystics. When I was in my 30s and I was teaching at the University of Seattle one summer the science fiction course you know the writing course I got to talking to one of the students who was also very much into this kind of thing and we drove several people nuts because we were saying things that were paradoxes, contradictions, and one of them said that A cannot be ... and got in a corner and pulled his hair.

sd: Sometimes you have to do that.

jr: But mystics have always talked in contradictions. a man asiatic who wanted to be shooter of golden arrows went to see greater of these who went to top of mountain. told first you must look at very very big things until they seem small and then you must look at very very small things until they seem big. and coming back to the guy's hut, the guy who wanted to be a great bowman or whatever, had left his arrows leaning against the hut, and the old man looks at this and says, oh one of those

[laughter]

JR: ... always gives me chills. it's the part where you know something so well and so completely but in an odd way you can't even talk about it. teehee this is what was driving him nuts. Science fiction does this so well - end of childhood's end. Mystics do so well - whole earth becomes light in the end.

===childhood influence on writing===
sd: i think it was [[Willa Cather]] who said sometime that most literary writers get all the material that they're going to write about by the time they are 8 years old. and i've always thought that this is one of those things that alternate b/w seeming absurd and seeming insanely true. do you have any thoughts about that do you think the same age range applies to science fiction

jr: no. you learn a great deal by 8 or 9 but you're always putting other things in as you get older. i don't know if this happens in other literature but it does happen in sf.

SD: if all literature is in a sense the literature of childhood then i think that sf is the literature of adolescence.

jr: yes i've heard that from you before

sd: yes i'm not saying anything here i haven't said before. you were a Westinghouse winner in high school. can you tell us about the project?

jr: my dad built a long box for me w/ lights at the top and i grew a fungus in each compartment. and each compartment light had a different gel with colors red, blue, white, and completely dark. fungus produced different kinds of spores and produced them in different patterns depending on light. aspergillis janus, janus being two-faced, ancient roman god of beginning of year, two faces, one of future and one of past. different patterns - pie shaped,

sd: did you ever use that sort of thing in stories?

jr: i didn't. by the time i finished i thought it was terribly boring.

===leapside===
sd: story of yours i've always been very fond of a story called leapsite. basically a large winged creature hovers outside a window, it's made of, do we learn what leapside actually is in the story?

jr: no it's not in the story it's the title of the story. and it's an imaginary material made up by a Cornell architect. and whenever you had a problem you couldn't solve we said make it a leapside and change whatever variable you had. ... the story is in a way about fantasy in which fantasy becomes real.

SD: leapside is a great story and a great title.

SD: any of yours you find yourself still particularly fond of.

JR: hard to say - things change as time goes by. i will say this, i read most of them and i think they were pretty good.

applause.

JR: i have a few of those and think did i wrote that i have a few of those but not very many most are pretty good

SD: i think they're pretty good too b/c you're one of the writers i go back to read. can we talk about your novels, you don't talk about ''[[And Chaos Died]]'' much.

===And Chaos Died===
jr: Yes. ... embarrassed. ... lots of stereotyped ideas about gay men. That didn't come to me until later. And [[Marge Piercy]] put her finger on it when she said if you think of gay man as a woman it makes sense.

sd: Those things don't bother me personally nearly as much as they do when the book came out.

jr: Yeah because the whole social surround has changed so much, you have changed, you can say the hell with them, whatever.

sd: The result is that there are just spectacular passages, just pellmell, one after another through the book, despite anything you might raise an eyebrow at, all sorts of wonderful things, like the passage I quoted. You say it embarrassed you; any parts you like?

jr: Yes. I think the protagonist and one of the woman - evnuh - are walking through the countryside - and I think the description of the countryside is very good.

sd: Yes some of the transition scenes -- I read them and my jaw drops even if I'm not in agreement with what he's transitioning from and to, it's great writing.

===sympathy for the young===
sd: It's also a poignant sympathy for the young that manifests itself in many stories.

jr: Oh yes.

sd: But in particular "[[The Second Inquisition]]", the story of the young lesbian girl in ''[[The Female Man]]'' ... just wring your heart out; they certainly wring my heart out. Any special relationship in terms of your own life.

jr: Yes I think so. I was discovering maybe a little later than that but also in that time discovering what they call the child within. And I discovered that I have one. I think everybody does. And this is not a separate personality, it's a kind of different personality, and she insists that she is the empress of the universe. Then if she gets in trouble she comes and hides behind me and I have to take care of it. heh heh.

sd: Your descriptions of the young woman in the second inquisition, and i'm trying to remember the epigraph in that story.

jr: there is no second inquisition it starts, there damn well is

sd: something like if you can survive the opinions of the people in the small town in which you live you can survive anything. is what i took away from it. there is no second inquisition.

jr: I put a lot of autobiographical detail in that story. The town, the backyard, the little sort of couch or swing they sit on, stuff like that, the dance. All comes from stuff i've seen or lived through.

sd: and stuff that feels incredibly real and has that ring of truth or as once i described it in critical writing it's not the ring of truth it's a whole gong of truth

=== being sick ===
jr: I felt very bad about not writing when I got sick and couldn't. The only thing i could do was finish the book ''[[What Are We Fighting For]]'' that I'd started much earlier.

sd: You did a great job.

jr: Well I'm beginning to be self-indulgent as I said. I like it. For example for someone like me who's lactose intolerant they are making the most wonderful imitation ice creams. And I find that if I eat too much of sugar especially chocolate I get a hangover. ... cartoon that expresses that - raven sitting over Edgar Allen Poe and the raven says "sometimes".

[laughter]

SD: I don't know why I found myself repeating of all people Plato recently. and discovering that his idea of what education was for was to make your own world interesting to you.

JR: The more education you get the more interesting everything becomes.

sd: Do you still correspond with any of your old friends. I have been a very bad correspondent of late i know. I admit in public in front of all these people. Are you on email at all?

jr: No. That's too much input. That's sensory overload for me. I'd probably become addicted or something like that. Long-distance phone charges have really gone down. For something like $20 a month I can get unlimited long distance calling. So instead of writing I call people.

sd: Do you have a good set of support in Tucson?

jr: Yes a small one. I have neighbors, one of whom is a children's book writer who has MS and uses a wheelchair. Let's see, oh my goodness. I haven't really gone out to do this because I have been so easily tired that it's difficult.

sd: One of the things where I teach at Temple University -- one of the things that's becoming, occupying a lot of very smart & interesting young scholars is [[disability studies]]. It's becoming something that's well worth one's time to follow. Have you been looking at any of the work that people are doing with that?

jr: ... I have a lot of the early books about it. feminist disabilities mostly. I've been too busy doing it to write about it. Having taught in academy for 25 years, i feel the way [[bell hooks]] does about it, when she says that universities and colleges are full of not very interesting very bright people.

sd: Often that can be the case but sometimes I think they can be full of interesting bright people as well. Interesting people are attracted to universities.

jr: Yes that's true.

sd: Can you think of any particular local plans you've got over the next couple of weeks or months.

jr: Not particularly. I'm trying to solve the old medical problems. ... solution ... the big one just being tired. If that's so life could be a lot better.

sd: Sleeping can be fun. I say that as someone who's enjoying sleeping more and more every month. Are there any other - you mentioned [[Terri Windling]] fantasy, are there any particular stories that struck you in there as interesting?

jr: Yes but I can't remember titles and authors because i don't have it with me. One of the things that does seem to happen as you get older. Memory just goes poof. ... story they tell about chronic fatigue syndrome. She's talking to doctor & trying to explain to him how strange. She says it took her four days to find watch. And he says, 'People do misplace things,' and she says, 'In the microwave?'

sd: Changes in memory are bizarre. I'm speaking from experience. I've often wondered whether the vaunted wisdom of old age is only speaking in generalizations because you can't remember the specifics.

jr: I don't know how long it took me or you to decide that the double bind in science fiction was economic, but I didn't know that in my 20s, I hadn't had that experience.

sd: But there is the one you did go through -- maybe you can give me some advice because I haven't figured it out -- how do you write and teach at the same time.

===Writing and teaching===

jr: You write and teach at the same time by getting very tired. ... in a way I did do it and in a way I didn't. In my 20s I was a junior teacher, I was an instructor, and that meant that I didn't go to meetings and didn't have any voice in the department. But it was great because i had lots of time and energy. But as I got older and my rank increased I had less time. In my 50s if i got an idea for a story or a novel I'd say oh god not again I can't. ... not coming to meetings, not having enough honor students or advisees, I would just look sort of pathetic and say oh yes I'm trying but I wouldn't do it.

sd: That's probably what you have to do you have to break down and take the time for yourself which is hard to do if you're a labile friendly genial sort of person.

jr: Which I was not. I think what I did very self-consciously was teach the same kinds of classes all the time, creative writing classes all the time, so I didn't have to develop from scratch.

sd: My greatest failing is that I do want to teach new things all the time - hmm. Now I just want to think.

=== questions from the audience.===

Q - As someone who's 63 and in a mobile chair - i really appreciate your honesty about what you can and can't do.

Q - I was just wondering, I know you mentioned that your opinions of gay men used to very different & traditional, I was wondering if your opinions of transsexual women have changed since you wrote ''[[The Female Man]]''.

JR: Oh yes. Oh yes it's almost as if my life as arranged itself to disabuse me of one prejudice after another. And all of these have gone because none of them were real really.

SD: Do you want to say anything more about that or move on?

JR: Let's move on.

Q: Would you comment on the state of feminism today?

JR: I don't really know enough about it to comment. I've been out of the loop. Except for ''[[Buffy]]''. So about 10 years at least now so I probably shouldn't say anything.

steve: I've been pushing your books at various people for many years. Which book would you like me to push first, how would you like your works to be introduced to people.

JR: I think he would have to decide what kind of people they are and sort of what would not repel people but would pull them in.

SD: I think that's what any writer would say. May I offer my own prejudices as someone who teaches Joanna's work again and again. I'd say younger & less sophisticated readers really enjoy ''[[The Adventures of Alyx]]''; more sophisticated readers like more sophisticated books like ''[[We Who Are About To]]'', ''[[The Female Man]]'', and ''[[The Two of Them]]''. And don't forget about ''[[On Strike Against God]]'' which is just as good.

JR: [something about academics]

SD: would she appreciate any correspondence and if so how do we contact you.

JR: well i don't really know what to say about that. sleeping 10 hours a night, i don't have really have much time to do it and i can't spend much time as i like. why don't you try and if i can write back i will and if i can't i'll write back and say i can't. see this is what happens when you get older, you stop giving really satisfying answers to questions. it all depends.

nnesi: i just wanted to ask if one of your indulgences includes music and if so what sort

JR: no it doesn't. i'm not sure why - i remember saying that the music you love is pretty much set by the time you're 30. i love baroque music, really love it, Rococo, all the way up to Mozart, and then Beethoven, and then i stopped dead. i think i discovered baroque music when everyone else was discovering -- ? -- i don't play particular music ... love tv, don't have much time. not one of those people who heard something and said it changed my life.

aud: what do you think of progression of situation you described in ''[[How to Suppress Women's Writing]]'' and do you think it's getting better.

JR: oh boy. again i really have been out of touch. i have the impression that yes it's getting better. i remember asking one of my classes at univ of washington about this and one of the young men said oh it's only okay to be a writer if you are like [[Stephen King]] and make a lot of money. don't know what to believe.

SD: let me offer my two cents as someone in academy. what seems to be happening is that to make room for women writers is that notion of great writer itself is dismantled.

JR: well that's a great thing

SD: yes but i miss it. people now read volette or Middlemarch which i think have always been spectacularly good novels and think of them as if they're not particularly brilliant and i'm not sure that's good

JR: [[Molly Ivins]] & [[Barbara Ehrenreich]] are always saying that the attention span of Americans is only 15 minutes.

SD: At most.

JR: It takes at least two generations to make an artist, in my case, maybe 3.

SD: We've all appreciated what you've said, and all you've done, and thanks very very much for talking with us -- it's been stimulating and wonderful.

anything --

aud: Tell her we love her. [wild applause]

== External Links ==
* [http://www.broaduniverse.org/broadsheet/0702jrsrd.html Official transcript at Broad Universe]

[[Category:WisCon 30 events]]
[[Category:Interviews]]
[[category:Joanna Russ]]
[[category:Samuel Delany]]
[[category:Nonfiction works by title]]

Main Page

2010-10-24T21:01:36Z

Liz Henry:

{{FSFwiki head}}

{{FrontFeature
| title = [[On Joanna Russ]]
| author = [[Farah Mendlesohn]]
| ISBN = 9780819569028
| notes = A 2009 collection of critical essays on one of the founding mothers of feminist science fiction.
| image = [[Image:On_Joanna_Russ.jpg|125px]]
}}

<center><big><big><big>a secret conspiracy</big></big></big></center>

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Feminism

2010-10-24T20:57:17Z

Liz Henry: /* Foundational Works of Feminist Theory */ Added Combahee River statement

Feminism is a big tent, but most (maybe all?) feminists would agree that, at least, feminism "it is the radical notion that women are people". See also [[feminisms]].

For this site, let's start with anything relating to
* gender relations
* [[sex roles]]
* sexual & reproductive biology
* women's history
* feminist perspectives & analyses

'''Feminism''' is an attitude; a belief; a process.

"Feminism" might better be described as "[[feminisms]]", and it would include a number of different trends, identities, politics, and historical tendencies:
* [[Difference feminism]] (aka Different Voice Feminism, Relational Feminism, Cultural Feminism)
* [[Radical feminism]]
* [[Dominance feminism]]
* [[Power feminism]]
* [[Materialist feminism]]
* [[Separatist feminism]]
* [[Cyborg feminism]]
* [[Sex-positive feminism]]

Relatedly, "hyphenated" feminism (an FSFwiki neologism, derived from "anarchism without hyphenation") combines feminist analysis with another political analysis.
* [[Anarcha-feminism]]
* [[Ecofeminism]]
* [[Marxist feminism]]
* [[Socialist feminism]]
* [[Womanism]]
* [[Lesbian feminism]]

The "wave" model of feminism refers to a certain view of feminism, which divides the movement into "peak" periods of activity, generally beginning in the late 19th Century:
* [[First-wave feminism]]
* [[Second-wave feminism]]
* [[Third-wave feminism]]
This model is questionable for several reasons, notably its strong anglocentric, western perspective and bias, its reductive (a)historicism, its tendencious discontinuity, and its extremely loose definition, insofar as the choice of years or events bounding each wave fluctuates wildly and arbitrarily, as do the characteristics ascribed to them. There is a good deal of chronological snobbery at work in this model, and its overall simplicity contributes to a vast and popular mystification of the progress achieved in and the processes of women's liberation.

The [[WisCon]] version (at http://www.wiscon.info/faq.php) is also applicable:

::We define "feminist" broadly to include race and class issues, gay/bisexual/lesbian/transgender issues, and anything else that touches on strong women (authors, artists, readers, characters) in science fiction, fantasy, and horror.

At the FSFwiki, we are also concerned with the ways in which gender operates with or in relation to other establishments of hierarchy and privilege/oppression based on, for instance, race & ethnicity, nationality, wealth & class, language, education, marital status, sexual preference/orientation/behavior, age, and other physical attributes such as dis/ability, size, "beauty", etc.

Some hyphenated-feminisms are defined in order to differentiate adherents from other categories of feminist. For instance, "difference feminism" and "equality feminism". Some times, these categories of feminism may not be self-identified, but may in fact by labels assigned by detractors or critics. For instance, so-called "victim feminism", which allegedly focuses too much or solely on the ways in which women are victimized by men or sexism. Such labels can potentially be helpful in identifying threads or strains within some feminist analysis, including over-simplifications within analysis. However, such labels can sometimes be simply harmful, a way of setting up a "straw-feminist" to argue with. One potentially constructive approach is to take a label which has been created (as "victim feminism" was created by anti-feminists) and set up an alternative (such as "power feminism"). The caution would be to not allow anti-feminists to delegitimize entire analyses simply by creating a negative-sounding label; however, to the extent that there is useful analylsis in the label (even if intended to delegitimize feminist analysis), reconfiguring the language with a useful new label may be a way to recapture and frame the debate.

==Bibliography==

===Foundational Works of Feminist Theory===

* "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" by [[Mary Wollstonecraft]] (1792)
* Seneca Falls Declaration (1848)
* "A Room of One's Own" by [[Virginia Woolf]] (1929)
* ''The Feminine Mystique'' by Betty Friedan (1963)
* "Black Women's Manifesto" from Double Jeopardy: To Be Black and Female, by Frances M. Beal, Third World Women's Alliance (New York), 1969. (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/196.html)
* The Combahee River Collective Statement http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/combrivercoll.html (1980)
* "Ain't I a Woman", by [[bell hooks]] (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Ain%27t_I_a_Woman%3F_%28book%29 ) (1981)

* See [[List of feminist theorists]]

===Introductions & Overviews & Feminism 101 Collections===
* ''Feminisms'', ed. Warhol & Price Herndel

* [http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146 How to be a Real Nice Guy] by Andrea Rubenstein
* [http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html The Male Privilege Checklist] by B. Deutsch
* [http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack] by Peggy McIntosh

[[category:About]]
[[category:Feminism| ]]

[[category:FSFwiki admin index|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Feminism

2010-10-24T20:50:50Z

Liz Henry: /* Foundational Works of Feminist Theory */ Added Black Women's Manifesto

Feminism is a big tent, but most (maybe all?) feminists would agree that, at least, feminism "it is the radical notion that women are people". See also [[feminisms]].

For this site, let's start with anything relating to
* gender relations
* [[sex roles]]
* sexual & reproductive biology
* women's history
* feminist perspectives & analyses

'''Feminism''' is an attitude; a belief; a process.

"Feminism" might better be described as "[[feminisms]]", and it would include a number of different trends, identities, politics, and historical tendencies:
* [[Difference feminism]] (aka Different Voice Feminism, Relational Feminism, Cultural Feminism)
* [[Radical feminism]]
* [[Dominance feminism]]
* [[Power feminism]]
* [[Materialist feminism]]
* [[Separatist feminism]]
* [[Cyborg feminism]]
* [[Sex-positive feminism]]

Relatedly, "hyphenated" feminism (an FSFwiki neologism, derived from "anarchism without hyphenation") combines feminist analysis with another political analysis.
* [[Anarcha-feminism]]
* [[Ecofeminism]]
* [[Marxist feminism]]
* [[Socialist feminism]]
* [[Womanism]]
* [[Lesbian feminism]]

The "wave" model of feminism refers to a certain view of feminism, which divides the movement into "peak" periods of activity, generally beginning in the late 19th Century:
* [[First-wave feminism]]
* [[Second-wave feminism]]
* [[Third-wave feminism]]
This model is questionable for several reasons, notably its strong anglocentric, western perspective and bias, its reductive (a)historicism, its tendencious discontinuity, and its extremely loose definition, insofar as the choice of years or events bounding each wave fluctuates wildly and arbitrarily, as do the characteristics ascribed to them. There is a good deal of chronological snobbery at work in this model, and its overall simplicity contributes to a vast and popular mystification of the progress achieved in and the processes of women's liberation.

The [[WisCon]] version (at http://www.wiscon.info/faq.php) is also applicable:

::We define "feminist" broadly to include race and class issues, gay/bisexual/lesbian/transgender issues, and anything else that touches on strong women (authors, artists, readers, characters) in science fiction, fantasy, and horror.

At the FSFwiki, we are also concerned with the ways in which gender operates with or in relation to other establishments of hierarchy and privilege/oppression based on, for instance, race & ethnicity, nationality, wealth & class, language, education, marital status, sexual preference/orientation/behavior, age, and other physical attributes such as dis/ability, size, "beauty", etc.

Some hyphenated-feminisms are defined in order to differentiate adherents from other categories of feminist. For instance, "difference feminism" and "equality feminism". Some times, these categories of feminism may not be self-identified, but may in fact by labels assigned by detractors or critics. For instance, so-called "victim feminism", which allegedly focuses too much or solely on the ways in which women are victimized by men or sexism. Such labels can potentially be helpful in identifying threads or strains within some feminist analysis, including over-simplifications within analysis. However, such labels can sometimes be simply harmful, a way of setting up a "straw-feminist" to argue with. One potentially constructive approach is to take a label which has been created (as "victim feminism" was created by anti-feminists) and set up an alternative (such as "power feminism"). The caution would be to not allow anti-feminists to delegitimize entire analyses simply by creating a negative-sounding label; however, to the extent that there is useful analylsis in the label (even if intended to delegitimize feminist analysis), reconfiguring the language with a useful new label may be a way to recapture and frame the debate.

==Bibliography==

===Foundational Works of Feminist Theory===
* "A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" by [[Mary Wollstonecraft]] (1792)
* Seneca Falls Declaration (1848)
* "A Room of One's Own" by [[Virginia Woolf]] (1929)
* ''The Feminine Mystique'' by Betty Friedan (1963)
* "Black Women's Manifesto" from Double Jeopardy: To Be Black and Female, by Frances M. Beal, Third World Women's Alliance (New York), 1969. (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/196.html)
* "The Treasure of the City of Ladies" by Christine de Pizan (1405)
* See [[List of feminist theorists]]

===Introductions & Overviews & Feminism 101 Collections===
* ''Feminisms'', ed. Warhol & Price Herndel

* [http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146 How to be a Real Nice Guy] by Andrea Rubenstein
* [http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html The Male Privilege Checklist] by B. Deutsch
* [http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack] by Peggy McIntosh

[[category:About]]
[[category:Feminism| ]]

[[category:FSFwiki admin index|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Award activism

2010-10-12T19:13:27Z

Liz Henry: added 2010 link

Award Activism

So not enough women are winning genre fiction and related awards. That's not good. But it isn't going to change unless we (and by "we" we mean "you" as well) do something about it. So what can you do?

==Current year's award-eligible works==
Add to this list, and nominate from it: [[Works by women eligible for 2010 SF Awards]]

==[[Locus Poll]]==

If you can read this wiki then you can vote in the ''Locus'' Poll. You have no excuse. Check the ''Locus'' web site each March.

==[[Hugo Award|Hugo]]==

The Hugos are owned by the World Science Fiction Society (WSFS). Voting is open only to WSFS members, but you can easily become a member simply by joining the current year's [[Worldcon]]. Fortunately you don't have to actually attend the convention (which can get very expensive). You can buy a ''supporting membership''. This entitles you to nominate and vote in the Hugos, nominate for the following year's Hugos, and vote in the ''site selection'' ballot which determines where Worldcon will be held two years later. You also get copies of all of the current Worldcon's publications (a glossy souvenir book and a number of progress reports).

The cost of a Supporting Membership varies each year, and is currently running in the range $40-$50. That's less than $1 a week to do your bit for promoting women writers.

You may have heard that voting in site selection also costs money. It does, but you get a free supporting membership in the winning convention in return for your voting fee. If you were going to buy that supporting membership anyway you are not out of pocket. And if you end up wanting to attend you can upgrade to an attending membership, usually at a discount for having voted.

Some regular WSFS members believe that supporting memberships are too expensive and/or that Worldcons should offer a cheaper ''voting membership'' to encourage participation in the Hugos. WSFS is a democratic organization whose rules are set by a meeting open to all members held at Worldcon. Also individual Worldcons have considerable leeway in what memberships they can offer, and as they are volunteer-run they are always looking for enthusiastic fans to help out. If you are serious about changing the Hugos, it is possible to get involved in WSFS politics and have an impact.

If you really can't afford a supporting membership, you can still influence those who can. During the nomination period there is much online discussion of potential nominees. The most prominent site for such discussion is the Hugo_Recommend LiveJournal community [http://community.livejournal.com/hugo_recommend/]. Anyone can recommend works/people here, and the blog is read by many people who do have Hugo nominating rights.

Finally, while thousands of people are eligible to nominate and vote in the Hugos each year, less than 1,000 actually do so. If you can nominate and/or vote, please do so.

==[[World Fantasy Award|World Fantasy]]==

Members of the World Fantasy Convention have a say in the nominees (but not the final winners) in the World Fantasy Awards. Unlike Worldcon, WFC has no supporting memberships. Joining the convention will cost you at least $100, but that does get you the right to nominate for three years. WFC is predominantly an event for industry professionals rather than for fans, so you may find it less interesting to attend than Worldcon or Wiscon. But if you are an industry professional it is well worth attending for professional reasons, and you get to nominate in the awards.

==National Fan Awards==

Many countries have fan awards given out by fan associations or by national conventions. These include the BSFA Awards (UK), the Auroras (Canada) and the Ditmars (Australia). The USA has no national fan awards, but a number of regional fan groups do give awards to local writers. If you are an active fan you can get involved in voting in these awards.

==Judged (juried) Awards==

Judged (also "juried") awards are decided by the judges, and you generally don't get to be a judge unless you are a well known writer, editor or critic, or perhaps a well-respected fan. But that doesn't mean that the rest of us cannot at least try to influence the results.

To start with, judges read. For all you know, some award judges may be reading your blog. What you say about fiction may influence them.

Secondly, some judged awards only consider books submitted to them by publishers. A publisher may not bother to submit a book if it hasn't been selling well, or has been getting poor reviews. Buying books, and writing about them when you find that they are good, can help them win judged awards.

And finally, you can complain about the results if you don't like them. You never know, the following year's jury might take your complaints to heart. But before you go yelling "bastards" at the judges, please remember that awards are given for excellence, not for gender. So long as more men get published than women, it is statistically more likely that men will win awards.

You may also be concerned about the representation on juried panels. While judges certainly try to do a good job, there is some evidence that men are less likely to pick up and read a book by an apparently female author, and it is reasonable to assume that unconscious biases may also inform a judge's evaluation of a work. Thus, ensuring that selection of juries takes into account gender, and other major identities that may implicate relevant social criteria for that award (most often ethnicity, but language or nationality are also likely candidates) is important.

[[Category:Awards]]
[[Category:Activism]]

Works by women eligible for 2009 SF Awards

2010-10-12T19:12:14Z

Liz Henry:

This is a list of works written by women and eligible for SF awards to be given out in 2009 based on works published from January 1, 2008, to December 31, 2008. Awards that follow this eligibility format include the Hugo, the Campbell, the World Fantasy Award, the Tiptree, and the Phillip K. Dick. (The Nebulas have a rolling period of eligibility for nomination based on the specific date a work was published.) We're listing these works as a form of [[award activism]]: to bring them greater attention, to share information about them for ourselves, and to help avoid problems like the [[2006 Hugo vacuum]]. See [[Eligibility and voting by award]] for a quick index of information about individual awards, and links to the individual award pages for more detail.

Please include here ''any eligible work'', along with the relevant information: title, publication date, and format. For novels, it's useful to search Amazon for the author's name: the list of works has publication date and format right there.

Note: Some awards are based on ''first publication'' and other awards are based on first publication in the US, England, etc. If a work was first published outside of the time period but would be eligible for some awards, please add it and add in parentheses any restrictions or explanations about eligibility.

Related: [[Women eligible for 2009 SF Awards]] | [[Works by women eligible for 2010 SF Awards]]

* See [[Eligibility and voting by award]]
* See [[Award activism]]
* See [[2006 Hugo vacuum]]

== Book Length Fiction ==

=== Novels ===
Hugo, World Fantasy, Locus, Bram Stoker and Campbell Memorial eligible: if published in paperback in the US, Philip K. Dick eligible

*[[Kelley Armstrong]], ''Personal Demon'' (March 2008, Orbit)
*[[Kage Baker]], ''Or Else My Lady Keeps the Key'' (March 2008, Subterranean Press)
*[[Kage Baker]], ''The House of the Stag'' (September 2008, Tor)
*[[Elizabeth Bear]], ''Dust'' (January 2008, Bantam Spectra)
*[[Anne Bishop]], ''Tangled Webs'' (March 2008, Roc)
*[[Marie Brennan]], ''Midnight Never Come'' (June 2008, Orbit)
*[[Lois McMaster Bujold]] ''The Sharing Knife: Passage'' (February 2008, Eos)
*[[Suzanne Collins]], ''The Hunger Games'' (2008)
*[[Jenny Davidson]], ''The Explosionist'' (October 2008, Harper)
*[[Kate Elliott]], ''[[Shadow Gate]]'' (February 2008, Little Brown UK/Orbit)
*[[Bernadine Evaristo]], ''Blonde Roots'' (2008, Hamish Hamilton)
*[[Jaine Fenn]], ''Principles of Angels'' (June 2008, Gollancz)
*[[Karen Joy Fowler]], ''Wit's End'' (April 2008, Putnam/Marian Wood)
*[[Jo Graham]], ''Black Ships'' (March 2008, Orbit US)
*[[Robin Hobb]], ''Renegade's Magic'' (February 2008, Eos) (first published in the UK)
*[[Cecelia Holland]], ''Varanger'' (April 2008, Tor/Forge)
*[[Samantha Hunt]], ''The Invention of Everything Else' (June 2008, Harvill Secker)
*[[Margo Lanagan]], ''[[Tender Morsels]]'' (October 2008, Knopf)
*[[Tanith Lee]], ''Tempting the Gods'' (April 2008, Wildside Press)
*[[Doris Lessing]], ''Alfred and Emily'' (2008)
*[[Ursula K. Le Guin]], ''Lavinia'' (April 2008, Harcourt)
*[[Robin McKinley]], ''Chalice'' (September 2008, Penguin)
*[[Judith Merril]], ''Not Only a Woman'' (February 2008, NESFA Press)
*[[Elizabeth Moon]], ''Victory Conditions'' (February 2008, Ballantine Del Rey)
*[[Dru Pagliassotti]], ''Clockwork Heart'' (March 2008, Juno Books)
*[[Holly Phillips]], ''The Engine's Child'' (November 2008, Ballantine Del Rey)
*[[Justina Robson]], ''Going Under' (2008, Gollancz/Pyr)
*[[Mary Doria Russell]], ''Dreamers of the Day'' (2008)
*[[Ekaterina Sedia]], ''The Alchemy of Stone'' (2008, Prime)
*[[Jennifer Stevenson]], ''The Brass Bed'' (April 2008, Ballantine)
*[[Karen Traviss]], ''Judge'' (April 2008, Eos)
*[[Jo Walton]], ''Half a Crown'' (September 2008, Tor)
*[[Michelle West]], ''The Hidden City'' (March 2008, DAW)
*[[Liz Williams]], ''Winterstrike'' (2008, Tor UK)

=== First Novel ===
Locus and Bram Stoker eligible

*[[Jo Graham]], ''Black Ships'' (March 2008, Orbit US)
*[[Dru Pagliassotti]], ''Clockwork Heart'' (March 2008, Juno Books)

=== Collections ===
World Fantasy, Stoker and Locus eligible - single author, original or reprint, single or multiple editors

*[[Kelly Link]], Pretty Monsters (October 2008, Viking)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Unwelcome Bodies (February 2008, Apex Book Company)
*[[Nisi Shawl]], Filter House (August 2008, Aqueduct Press)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], A Guide to Folktales in Fragile Dialects (April 2008, Norilana Books)

=== Anthologies ===
World Fantasy, Stoker and Locus eligible - multiple author original or reprint, single or multiple editors

*''[http://www.twocranespress.com/botany/ A Field Guide to Surreal Botany]'', [[Janet Chui]] (& Jason Erik Lundberg), eds. (2008, Two Cranes Press)
*''[[The James Tiptree Award Anthology 4]]'', [[Karen Joy Fowler]], [[Pat Murphy]] & [[Debbie Notkin]], eds. (January 2008, Tachyon Publications, anth)
*''[[Lace and Blade]]'', [[Deborah J. Ross]], ed. (February 2008, Leda (imprint of Norilana Books), anth)
*''[[Warrior Wisewoman]]'', [[Roby James]], ed. (June 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''[[Clockwork Phoenix]]'', [[Mike Allen]], ed. (July 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''[[Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword and Sorceress XXIII]]'', [[Elisabeth Waters]], ed. (November 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''The New Weird'', [[Ann VanderMeer]] (with Jeff VanderMeer) ed., (February 2008, Tachyon Publications)
*''Paper Cities'', [[Ekaterina Sedia]], ed. (April 2008, Senses Five Press)
*''The Starry Rift: Tales of New Tomorrows'', Jonathan Strahan, ed. (2008, Viking)

== Short Fiction ==

=== Short Stories ===
Hugo, Locus, World Fantasy, and Sturgeon eligible. World Fantasy is under 10,000 words

*[[Alana Joli Abbott]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/abbott_nomis_wish.html Nomi's Wish] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Elizabeth Bear]], Hobnoblin Blues ([[Realms of Fantasy]], February 2008)
*[[Beth Bernobich]], Shopping Spree ([[Baen's Universe]], August 2008)
*[[Deborah Biancotti]], The Tailor of Time (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Naomi Bloch]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081201/same_old_story-f.shtml The Same Old Story] ([[Strange Horizons]], 1 December 2008)
*[[Leah Bobet]], Bell, Book, and Candle (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Leah Bobet]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080929/duray-f.shtml Kimberley Ann Duray Is Not Afraid] (Strange Horizons, 29 September 2008)
*[[K. Tempest Bradford]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081117/forgiveness-f.shtml Until Forgiveness Comes] (Strange Horizons, 17 November 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Lost Soul ([[Intergalactic Medicine Show]] #7, January 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Kiss of Life (Beneath the Surface, ed. Tim Deal, 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], The Deaths of Christopher Marlowe ([[Paradox]] #12, April 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Beggar's Blessing ([[Shroud Magazine]] #2, 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], A Mask of Flesh (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], [http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/story.php?s=4 Kingspeaker] ([[Beneath Ceaseless Skies]] #3, November 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], A Heretic by Degrees ([[Intergalactic Medicine Show]] #10, November 2008)
*[[Sarah Rees Brennan]], [http://http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/brennan_old-fashioned_unicorn.html An Old-Fashioned Unicorn's Guide to Courtship] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Sue Burke]], Spiders (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Stephanie Campisi]], The Title of This Story (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Carless]], Daystar ([[OnSpec]], January 2008)
*[[Nancy Chenier]], Re-Annunciation (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Deborah Coates]]
**The Whale's Lover ([[Asimov's]], January 2008)
**[http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080121/heart-f.shtml How to Hide Your Heart] (Strange Horizons, 21 January 2008)
*[[Tina Connolly]]
**The Salivary Reflex ([[GUD]], February 2008)
**[http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080602/eyeball-f.shtml On the Eyeball Floor] (Strange Horizons, 2 June 2008)
*[[Constance Cooper]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080728/snow_crease-f.shtml Called Out to Snow Crease Farm] (Strange Horizons, 28 July 2008)
*[[Haddayr Copley-Woods]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080225/dead-f.shtml Dead] (Strange Horizons, 25 February 2008)
*[[Sheila Crosby]], The Appliance of Science (Escape Velocity, February 2008)
*[[Jennifer Crow]], Seven Scenes from Harrai's ''Sacred Mountain'' (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[A.M. Dellamonica]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080421/five_good_things-f.shtml Five Good Things About Meghan Sheedy] (Strange Horizons, 21 April 2008)
*[[Kris Dikeman]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081027/sundays-f.shtml Nine Sundays in a Row] (Strange Horizons, 27 October 2008)
*[[Debra Doyle]] (with James D. Macdonald), Philologos; or, A Murder in Bistrita (F&SF, February 2008)
*[[Oz Drummond]], Re\Creation, ([[Analog]], November 2008)
*[[Eugenie Edquist]], Motor Skills (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Francesca Forrest]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/forrest_oracle.html The Oracle] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Jess Freeborn]], A Deck of Cards (Polluto, January 2008)
*[[Joanna Galbraith]], The Moon-Keeper's Friend (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Gwynne Garfinkle]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080616/in_lieu-f.shtml In Lieu of a Thank You] (Strange Horizons, 16 June 2008)
*[[Vanessa Gebbie]], Jamie Hawkins' Muse (GUD, February 2008)
*[[Kathleen Ann Goonan]], Sundiver Day (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Peni R. Griffin]], The Singers in the Tower (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
*[[Ann Halam]], Cheats (''The Starry Rift'', 2008)
*[[Merrie Haskell]]
**An Almanac for the Alien Invaders (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
**[http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/haskell_girl_prince.html The Girl-Prince] ([[Coyote Wild]] August 2008)
*[[Jennifer Harwood-Smith]], The Faces of My Friends ([[Interzone]], February 2008)
*[[Lynne Hawkinson]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080204/tokyo-f.shtml Tokyo Rising] (Strange Horizons, 4 February 2008)
*[[Samantha Henderson]], The Ballad of Delphinium Blue ([[Sybil's Garage]] #5, April 2008)
*[[Karen Heuler]], Landscape, With Fish ([[Weird Tales]], January 2008)
*[[Deb Hoag]], Werewolf of Sappho (Polluto, January 2008)
*[[M.K. Hobson]]
**The People's Republic of the Edelweiss Village Putt-Putt Golf Course (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
**Crushing Butterflies ([[Flytrap]] 9, May 2008)
**Comus of Central Park (Interzone 217, July 2008)
**The Hand of the Devil on a String (Shimmer, July 2008)
**The Purple Basil (Realms of Fantasy, October 2008)
**The Serpent Who Sleeps Beneath The Shards (Talebones 37, Fall 2008)
*[[Mary Hodge]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/hodge_mary_family.html Family] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Rosamund Hodge]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/hodge_rosamund_i_have_heard_angels.html I Have Heard the Angels Singing, Each to Each] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Erin Hoffman]], Root and Vein (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[J. J. Irwin]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080107/still-f.shtml Still Living] (Strange Horizons, 7 January 2008)
*[[Alaya Dawn Johnson]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080804/well-f.shtml Down the Well] (Strange Horizons, 4 August 2008)
*[[Vylar Kaftan]]
**The Girl Next Door (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
**Godivy (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Kanning]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080818/sexghosts-f.shtml Sex with Ghosts] (Strange Horizons, 18 August 2008)
*[[Helen Keeble]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080407/ashes-f.shtml In Ashes] (Strange Horizons, 7 April 2008)
*[[Larissa Kelly]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081222/engines-f.shtml Engines of Survival] (Strange Horizons, 22 December 2008)
*[[Alice Sola Kim]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080211/deena-f.shtml We Love Deena] (Strange Horizons, 11 February 2008)
*[[Rachel Kincaid]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080519/tell-f.shtml Tell Her] (Strange Horizons, 19 May 2008)
*[[Barbara Krasnoff]], All His Worldly Goods (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Nancy Kress]], Sex and Violence (Asimov's, February 2008)
*[[Margo Lanagan]], An Honest Day's Work (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Tanith Lee]], The Woman (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Ann Leckie]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080707/marsh-f.shtml Marsh Gods] (Strange Horizons, 7 July 2008)
*[[Kelly Link]], The Surfer (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Jennifer Linnaea]], Pseudo Tokyo (Interzone, February 2008)
*[[C.S. MacCath]], Akhila, Divided (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Alex Dally MacFarlane]], Tattoos of the Sky, Tattoos of the Days (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Elissa Malcohn]], Hermit Crabs (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Darja Malcolm-Clarke]]
**[http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=617-f.shtml His One True Bride] (Fantasy Magazine, June 16, 2008)
**A Song, a Prayer, an Empty Space (Greatest Uncommon Denominator Magazine, #3, Autumn 2008)
**Pearl in Shadow (Ideomancer, June 2008)
*[[Lisa Mantchev]], Perfect Tense (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Karen Maric]], The Last Deflowerer (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Tracie McBride]], The Last Tiger (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kirstyn McDermott]], Painlessness (GUD, February 2008)
*[[Sandra McDonald]], Recipe for Survival (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Maura McHugh]], Home (Shroud Magazine, Issue 2, Mar/April 2008)
*[[Melissa Mead]], Stepsister (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Joanne Merriam]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081006/swansong-f.shtml Swan Song] (Strange Horizons, 6 October 2008)
*[[T. L. Morganfield]], Night Bird Soaring (GUD #3, August 2008)
*[[Michelle Muenzler]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/muenzler_dancing_the_bones.html Dancing the Bones] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Ruth Nestvold]], Mars: A Traveler's Guide (F&SF, January 2008)
*[[Hazel Marcus Ong]], Roses (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Sashenka Redux (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Corie Ralston]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080128/looking-f.shtml Looking for Friendship, Maybe More] (Strange Horizons, 28 January 2008)
*[[Cat Rambo]]
**The Dew Drop Coffee Lounge (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
**Events at Fort Plentitude, (Weird Tales, January 2008)
**Kallakak's Cousins (Asimov's, March 2008)
**The Bumblety's Marble (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Laura Bradley Rede]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/rede_smacking_back.html Smacking Back] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Jenn Reese]], Taser (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Kate Riedel]], Pest Control (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Christie Skipper Ritchotte]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081020/midnight-f.shtml Just After Midnight] (Strange Horizons, 20 October 2008)
*[[Michaela Roessner]], It's a Wonderful Life ([[F&SF]], January 2008)
*[[Margaret Ronald]], And Spare Not the Flock (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
*[[Mary Rosenblum]], The Egg Man (Asimov's, February 2008)
*[[Sara Saab]], No Bubblewrap for Little Guys (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Veronica Schanoes]], Lost in the Supermarket (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Meredith Schwartz]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081215/breath-f.shtml How to Hold Your Breath] (Strange Horizons, 15 December 2008)
*[[Michelle Scott]], Them (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Ekaterina Sedia]], There is a Monster Under Helen's Bed (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Janni Lee Simner]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/simner_invasive_species.html Invasive Species] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Angela Slatter]], Pressina's Daughters (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Cat Sparks]], Palisade (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Cat Sparks]], Sammarynda Deep (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Nancy Springer]], Rumple What? (F&SF, March 2008)
*[[Tricia Sullivan]], Post-Ironic Stress Syndrome (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Chris Szego]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080414/valiant-f.shtml Valiant on the Wing] (Strange Horizons, 14 April 2008)
*[[Anna Tambour]], The Age of Fish, Post-Flowers (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Thomas]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080331/trees-f.shtml Ki Do (The Way of the Trees)] (Strange Horizons, 31 March 2008)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], The City of Blind Delight (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], Palimpsest (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Kaaron Warren]], Down to the Silver Spirits (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[D. E. Wasden]], The Artificial Sunlight of Memory (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Susan Wardle]], The Children’s Crusade (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Catherine Wells]], Ghost Town (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[K. D. Wentworth]], Exit Strategy (F&SF, March 2008)
*[[Leslie What]], #1 (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kate Wilhelm]], The Fountain of Neptune (F&SF, April 2008)
*[[Genevieve Williams]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080310/running-f.shtml Kip, Running] (Strange Horizons, 10 March 2008)
*[[Maggie L. Wood]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/wood_fallen.html Fallen] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Sharon E. Woods]], Bull (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Erzebet YellowBoy]], Waiting at the Window (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)

=== Novelettes ===
Hugo eligible; Hugo rules say a novelette is roughly 7,500-17,500 words, which may count as a novella for the World Fantasy and Stoker, or a short story for the World Fantasy or Sturgeon

*[[Elizabeth Bear]]
**Shoggoths in Bloom (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Beth Bernobich]]
**Air and Angels (Subterranean Online, Spring 2008)
**Pig, Crane, Fox: Three Hearts Unfolding (Magic in the Mirrorstone, Mirrorstone Books, February 2008)
**The Golden Octopus (Postscripts #15, August 2008)
*[[Samantha Cope]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080915/cowboy_angel-f.shtml Cowboy Angel] (Strange Horizons, 15 September 2008)
*[[Carol Emshwiller]]
**Master of the Road to Nowhere (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Kathleen Ann Goonan]], Memory Dog (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[Ann Leckie]], The God of Au (Helix, April 2008)
*[[Tanith Lee]], The Beautiful and Damned by F. Scott Fitzgerald (Asimov's, January 2008)
*[[Meghan McCarron]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080714/magician-f.shtml The Magician's House] (Strange Horizons, 14 July 2008)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Brushstrokes (Unwelcome Bodies, February 2008)
*[[Vandana Singh]], Oblivion: A Journey (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Leslie Claire Walker]], Your Blood (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kate Wilhelm]], Strangers When We Meet (Asimov's, April/May 2008)

=== Novellas ===
Hugo, Stoker, Locus and World Fantasy eligible; Hugo rules say a novella is roughly 17,500-40,000 words, World Fantasy is 10,000-40,000 words

*[[Catherine Asaro]], The Spacetime Pool (Analog, March 2008)
*[[Carolyn Ives Gilman]], Arkfall (F&SF, September 2008)
*[[Ann Miller]], Retrospect (F&SF, February 2008)
*[[Vera Nazarian]], The Duke in His Castle (Norilana Books, June 2008)
*[[Kristine Kathryn Rusch]], The Room of Lost Souls (Asimov's, April/May 2008)

== Non-Fiction ==

=== Related Books ===
Hugo, Stoker (as Non-Fiction) and Locus eligible, non-fiction book relating to the genre

*[[Farah Mendlesohn]], ''Rhetorics of Fantasy'' (April 2008, Wesleyan University Press)

== Poetry ==

=== Poem ===
Stoker eligible

*[[Elizabeth Barrette]], ''With Every Fine and Subtle Sense Perceive'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Ruth Berman]], ''Snow Angels'' (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Lida Broadhurst]], ''Asylum'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Miranda Gaw]], ''Last Supper'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Erin Hoffman]], ''Hyldegarde Speaks to Jacqueline'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Pam McNew]], ''No Word for Goodbye'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Joanne Merriam]], ''Death on Other Planets'' (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[Adrienne J. Odasso]], ''River Girl'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Sonya Taaffe]], ''Evighed'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)

=== Long Poem ===
Rhysling eligible

=== Short Poem ===
Rhysling eligible

== Film and Television ==

=== Dramatic Presentation, Long Form ===
Hugo eligible

=== Dramatic Presentation, Short Form ===
Hugo eligible

* ''[[Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles]]'' episodes:
** ''Queen's Gambit'' written by [[Natalie Chaidez]], first aired February 11, 2008
** ''The Demon Hand'' written by [[Toni Graphia]], first aired February 25, 2008

* ''[[Torchwood]]'' episodes:
** ''To the Last Man'' written by [[Helen Raynor]], first aired January 30, 2008
** ''Meat'' written by [[Catherine Tregenna]], first aired February 6, 2008
** ''Adam'' written by [[Catherine Tregenna]], first aired February 13, 2008

=== Script ===
Nebula eligible

[[Category:Works]]
[[Category:Writers]]
[[category:Women writers]]
[[Category:Awards]]

[[category:Lists of works|Women]]

Works by women eligible for 2009 SF Awards

2010-10-12T19:11:55Z

Liz Henry: added 2010 link

This is a list of works written by women and eligible for SF awards to be given out in 2009 based on works published from January 1, 2008, to December 31, 2008. Awards that follow this eligibility format include the Hugo, the Campbell, the World Fantasy Award, the Tiptree, and the Phillip K. Dick. (The Nebulas have a rolling period of eligibility for nomination based on the specific date a work was published.) We're listing these works as a form of [[award activism]]: to bring them greater attention, to share information about them for ourselves, and to help avoid problems like the [[2006 Hugo vacuum]]. See [[Eligibility and voting by award]] for a quick index of information about individual awards, and links to the individual award pages for more detail.

Please include here ''any eligible work'', along with the relevant information: title, publication date, and format. For novels, it's useful to search Amazon for the author's name: the list of works has publication date and format right there.

Note: Some awards are based on ''first publication'' and other awards are based on first publication in the US, England, etc. If a work was first published outside of the time period but would be eligible for some awards, please add it and add in parentheses any restrictions or explanations about eligibility.

Related: [[Women eligible for 2009 SF Awards]] [[Works by women eligible for 2010 SF Awards]]

* See [[Eligibility and voting by award]]
* See [[Award activism]]
* See [[2006 Hugo vacuum]]

== Book Length Fiction ==

=== Novels ===
Hugo, World Fantasy, Locus, Bram Stoker and Campbell Memorial eligible: if published in paperback in the US, Philip K. Dick eligible

*[[Kelley Armstrong]], ''Personal Demon'' (March 2008, Orbit)
*[[Kage Baker]], ''Or Else My Lady Keeps the Key'' (March 2008, Subterranean Press)
*[[Kage Baker]], ''The House of the Stag'' (September 2008, Tor)
*[[Elizabeth Bear]], ''Dust'' (January 2008, Bantam Spectra)
*[[Anne Bishop]], ''Tangled Webs'' (March 2008, Roc)
*[[Marie Brennan]], ''Midnight Never Come'' (June 2008, Orbit)
*[[Lois McMaster Bujold]] ''The Sharing Knife: Passage'' (February 2008, Eos)
*[[Suzanne Collins]], ''The Hunger Games'' (2008)
*[[Jenny Davidson]], ''The Explosionist'' (October 2008, Harper)
*[[Kate Elliott]], ''[[Shadow Gate]]'' (February 2008, Little Brown UK/Orbit)
*[[Bernadine Evaristo]], ''Blonde Roots'' (2008, Hamish Hamilton)
*[[Jaine Fenn]], ''Principles of Angels'' (June 2008, Gollancz)
*[[Karen Joy Fowler]], ''Wit's End'' (April 2008, Putnam/Marian Wood)
*[[Jo Graham]], ''Black Ships'' (March 2008, Orbit US)
*[[Robin Hobb]], ''Renegade's Magic'' (February 2008, Eos) (first published in the UK)
*[[Cecelia Holland]], ''Varanger'' (April 2008, Tor/Forge)
*[[Samantha Hunt]], ''The Invention of Everything Else' (June 2008, Harvill Secker)
*[[Margo Lanagan]], ''[[Tender Morsels]]'' (October 2008, Knopf)
*[[Tanith Lee]], ''Tempting the Gods'' (April 2008, Wildside Press)
*[[Doris Lessing]], ''Alfred and Emily'' (2008)
*[[Ursula K. Le Guin]], ''Lavinia'' (April 2008, Harcourt)
*[[Robin McKinley]], ''Chalice'' (September 2008, Penguin)
*[[Judith Merril]], ''Not Only a Woman'' (February 2008, NESFA Press)
*[[Elizabeth Moon]], ''Victory Conditions'' (February 2008, Ballantine Del Rey)
*[[Dru Pagliassotti]], ''Clockwork Heart'' (March 2008, Juno Books)
*[[Holly Phillips]], ''The Engine's Child'' (November 2008, Ballantine Del Rey)
*[[Justina Robson]], ''Going Under' (2008, Gollancz/Pyr)
*[[Mary Doria Russell]], ''Dreamers of the Day'' (2008)
*[[Ekaterina Sedia]], ''The Alchemy of Stone'' (2008, Prime)
*[[Jennifer Stevenson]], ''The Brass Bed'' (April 2008, Ballantine)
*[[Karen Traviss]], ''Judge'' (April 2008, Eos)
*[[Jo Walton]], ''Half a Crown'' (September 2008, Tor)
*[[Michelle West]], ''The Hidden City'' (March 2008, DAW)
*[[Liz Williams]], ''Winterstrike'' (2008, Tor UK)

=== First Novel ===
Locus and Bram Stoker eligible

*[[Jo Graham]], ''Black Ships'' (March 2008, Orbit US)
*[[Dru Pagliassotti]], ''Clockwork Heart'' (March 2008, Juno Books)

=== Collections ===
World Fantasy, Stoker and Locus eligible - single author, original or reprint, single or multiple editors

*[[Kelly Link]], Pretty Monsters (October 2008, Viking)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Unwelcome Bodies (February 2008, Apex Book Company)
*[[Nisi Shawl]], Filter House (August 2008, Aqueduct Press)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], A Guide to Folktales in Fragile Dialects (April 2008, Norilana Books)

=== Anthologies ===
World Fantasy, Stoker and Locus eligible - multiple author original or reprint, single or multiple editors

*''[http://www.twocranespress.com/botany/ A Field Guide to Surreal Botany]'', [[Janet Chui]] (& Jason Erik Lundberg), eds. (2008, Two Cranes Press)
*''[[The James Tiptree Award Anthology 4]]'', [[Karen Joy Fowler]], [[Pat Murphy]] & [[Debbie Notkin]], eds. (January 2008, Tachyon Publications, anth)
*''[[Lace and Blade]]'', [[Deborah J. Ross]], ed. (February 2008, Leda (imprint of Norilana Books), anth)
*''[[Warrior Wisewoman]]'', [[Roby James]], ed. (June 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''[[Clockwork Phoenix]]'', [[Mike Allen]], ed. (July 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''[[Marion Zimmer Bradley's Sword and Sorceress XXIII]]'', [[Elisabeth Waters]], ed. (November 2008, Norilana Books, anth)
*''The New Weird'', [[Ann VanderMeer]] (with Jeff VanderMeer) ed., (February 2008, Tachyon Publications)
*''Paper Cities'', [[Ekaterina Sedia]], ed. (April 2008, Senses Five Press)
*''The Starry Rift: Tales of New Tomorrows'', Jonathan Strahan, ed. (2008, Viking)

== Short Fiction ==

=== Short Stories ===
Hugo, Locus, World Fantasy, and Sturgeon eligible. World Fantasy is under 10,000 words

*[[Alana Joli Abbott]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/abbott_nomis_wish.html Nomi's Wish] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Elizabeth Bear]], Hobnoblin Blues ([[Realms of Fantasy]], February 2008)
*[[Beth Bernobich]], Shopping Spree ([[Baen's Universe]], August 2008)
*[[Deborah Biancotti]], The Tailor of Time (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Naomi Bloch]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081201/same_old_story-f.shtml The Same Old Story] ([[Strange Horizons]], 1 December 2008)
*[[Leah Bobet]], Bell, Book, and Candle (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Leah Bobet]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080929/duray-f.shtml Kimberley Ann Duray Is Not Afraid] (Strange Horizons, 29 September 2008)
*[[K. Tempest Bradford]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081117/forgiveness-f.shtml Until Forgiveness Comes] (Strange Horizons, 17 November 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Lost Soul ([[Intergalactic Medicine Show]] #7, January 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Kiss of Life (Beneath the Surface, ed. Tim Deal, 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], The Deaths of Christopher Marlowe ([[Paradox]] #12, April 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], Beggar's Blessing ([[Shroud Magazine]] #2, 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], A Mask of Flesh (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], [http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/story.php?s=4 Kingspeaker] ([[Beneath Ceaseless Skies]] #3, November 2008)
*[[Marie Brennan]], A Heretic by Degrees ([[Intergalactic Medicine Show]] #10, November 2008)
*[[Sarah Rees Brennan]], [http://http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/brennan_old-fashioned_unicorn.html An Old-Fashioned Unicorn's Guide to Courtship] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Sue Burke]], Spiders (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Stephanie Campisi]], The Title of This Story (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Carless]], Daystar ([[OnSpec]], January 2008)
*[[Nancy Chenier]], Re-Annunciation (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Deborah Coates]]
**The Whale's Lover ([[Asimov's]], January 2008)
**[http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080121/heart-f.shtml How to Hide Your Heart] (Strange Horizons, 21 January 2008)
*[[Tina Connolly]]
**The Salivary Reflex ([[GUD]], February 2008)
**[http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080602/eyeball-f.shtml On the Eyeball Floor] (Strange Horizons, 2 June 2008)
*[[Constance Cooper]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080728/snow_crease-f.shtml Called Out to Snow Crease Farm] (Strange Horizons, 28 July 2008)
*[[Haddayr Copley-Woods]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080225/dead-f.shtml Dead] (Strange Horizons, 25 February 2008)
*[[Sheila Crosby]], The Appliance of Science (Escape Velocity, February 2008)
*[[Jennifer Crow]], Seven Scenes from Harrai's ''Sacred Mountain'' (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[A.M. Dellamonica]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080421/five_good_things-f.shtml Five Good Things About Meghan Sheedy] (Strange Horizons, 21 April 2008)
*[[Kris Dikeman]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081027/sundays-f.shtml Nine Sundays in a Row] (Strange Horizons, 27 October 2008)
*[[Debra Doyle]] (with James D. Macdonald), Philologos; or, A Murder in Bistrita (F&SF, February 2008)
*[[Oz Drummond]], Re\Creation, ([[Analog]], November 2008)
*[[Eugenie Edquist]], Motor Skills (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Francesca Forrest]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/forrest_oracle.html The Oracle] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Jess Freeborn]], A Deck of Cards (Polluto, January 2008)
*[[Joanna Galbraith]], The Moon-Keeper's Friend (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Gwynne Garfinkle]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080616/in_lieu-f.shtml In Lieu of a Thank You] (Strange Horizons, 16 June 2008)
*[[Vanessa Gebbie]], Jamie Hawkins' Muse (GUD, February 2008)
*[[Kathleen Ann Goonan]], Sundiver Day (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Peni R. Griffin]], The Singers in the Tower (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
*[[Ann Halam]], Cheats (''The Starry Rift'', 2008)
*[[Merrie Haskell]]
**An Almanac for the Alien Invaders (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
**[http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/haskell_girl_prince.html The Girl-Prince] ([[Coyote Wild]] August 2008)
*[[Jennifer Harwood-Smith]], The Faces of My Friends ([[Interzone]], February 2008)
*[[Lynne Hawkinson]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080204/tokyo-f.shtml Tokyo Rising] (Strange Horizons, 4 February 2008)
*[[Samantha Henderson]], The Ballad of Delphinium Blue ([[Sybil's Garage]] #5, April 2008)
*[[Karen Heuler]], Landscape, With Fish ([[Weird Tales]], January 2008)
*[[Deb Hoag]], Werewolf of Sappho (Polluto, January 2008)
*[[M.K. Hobson]]
**The People's Republic of the Edelweiss Village Putt-Putt Golf Course (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
**Crushing Butterflies ([[Flytrap]] 9, May 2008)
**Comus of Central Park (Interzone 217, July 2008)
**The Hand of the Devil on a String (Shimmer, July 2008)
**The Purple Basil (Realms of Fantasy, October 2008)
**The Serpent Who Sleeps Beneath The Shards (Talebones 37, Fall 2008)
*[[Mary Hodge]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/hodge_mary_family.html Family] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Rosamund Hodge]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/hodge_rosamund_i_have_heard_angels.html I Have Heard the Angels Singing, Each to Each] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Erin Hoffman]], Root and Vein (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[J. J. Irwin]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080107/still-f.shtml Still Living] (Strange Horizons, 7 January 2008)
*[[Alaya Dawn Johnson]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080804/well-f.shtml Down the Well] (Strange Horizons, 4 August 2008)
*[[Vylar Kaftan]]
**The Girl Next Door (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
**Godivy (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Kanning]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080818/sexghosts-f.shtml Sex with Ghosts] (Strange Horizons, 18 August 2008)
*[[Helen Keeble]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080407/ashes-f.shtml In Ashes] (Strange Horizons, 7 April 2008)
*[[Larissa Kelly]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081222/engines-f.shtml Engines of Survival] (Strange Horizons, 22 December 2008)
*[[Alice Sola Kim]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080211/deena-f.shtml We Love Deena] (Strange Horizons, 11 February 2008)
*[[Rachel Kincaid]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080519/tell-f.shtml Tell Her] (Strange Horizons, 19 May 2008)
*[[Barbara Krasnoff]], All His Worldly Goods (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Nancy Kress]], Sex and Violence (Asimov's, February 2008)
*[[Margo Lanagan]], An Honest Day's Work (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Tanith Lee]], The Woman (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Ann Leckie]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080707/marsh-f.shtml Marsh Gods] (Strange Horizons, 7 July 2008)
*[[Kelly Link]], The Surfer (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Jennifer Linnaea]], Pseudo Tokyo (Interzone, February 2008)
*[[C.S. MacCath]], Akhila, Divided (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Alex Dally MacFarlane]], Tattoos of the Sky, Tattoos of the Days (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Elissa Malcohn]], Hermit Crabs (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Darja Malcolm-Clarke]]
**[http://www.darkfantasy.org/fantasy/?p=617-f.shtml His One True Bride] (Fantasy Magazine, June 16, 2008)
**A Song, a Prayer, an Empty Space (Greatest Uncommon Denominator Magazine, #3, Autumn 2008)
**Pearl in Shadow (Ideomancer, June 2008)
*[[Lisa Mantchev]], Perfect Tense (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Karen Maric]], The Last Deflowerer (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Tracie McBride]], The Last Tiger (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kirstyn McDermott]], Painlessness (GUD, February 2008)
*[[Sandra McDonald]], Recipe for Survival (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Maura McHugh]], Home (Shroud Magazine, Issue 2, Mar/April 2008)
*[[Melissa Mead]], Stepsister (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Joanne Merriam]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081006/swansong-f.shtml Swan Song] (Strange Horizons, 6 October 2008)
*[[T. L. Morganfield]], Night Bird Soaring (GUD #3, August 2008)
*[[Michelle Muenzler]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/muenzler_dancing_the_bones.html Dancing the Bones] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Ruth Nestvold]], Mars: A Traveler's Guide (F&SF, January 2008)
*[[Hazel Marcus Ong]], Roses (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Sashenka Redux (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Corie Ralston]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080128/looking-f.shtml Looking for Friendship, Maybe More] (Strange Horizons, 28 January 2008)
*[[Cat Rambo]]
**The Dew Drop Coffee Lounge (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
**Events at Fort Plentitude, (Weird Tales, January 2008)
**Kallakak's Cousins (Asimov's, March 2008)
**The Bumblety's Marble (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Laura Bradley Rede]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/rede_smacking_back.html Smacking Back] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Jenn Reese]], Taser (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Kate Riedel]], Pest Control (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Christie Skipper Ritchotte]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081020/midnight-f.shtml Just After Midnight] (Strange Horizons, 20 October 2008)
*[[Michaela Roessner]], It's a Wonderful Life ([[F&SF]], January 2008)
*[[Margaret Ronald]], And Spare Not the Flock (Realms of Fantasy, February 2008)
*[[Mary Rosenblum]], The Egg Man (Asimov's, February 2008)
*[[Sara Saab]], No Bubblewrap for Little Guys (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Veronica Schanoes]], Lost in the Supermarket (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Meredith Schwartz]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20081215/breath-f.shtml How to Hold Your Breath] (Strange Horizons, 15 December 2008)
*[[Michelle Scott]], Them (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Ekaterina Sedia]], There is a Monster Under Helen's Bed (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Janni Lee Simner]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/simner_invasive_species.html Invasive Species] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Angela Slatter]], Pressina's Daughters (OnSpec, January 2008)
*[[Cat Sparks]], Palisade (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Cat Sparks]], Sammarynda Deep (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Nancy Springer]], Rumple What? (F&SF, March 2008)
*[[Tricia Sullivan]], Post-Ironic Stress Syndrome (The Starry Rift, 2008)
*[[Chris Szego]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080414/valiant-f.shtml Valiant on the Wing] (Strange Horizons, 14 April 2008)
*[[Anna Tambour]], The Age of Fish, Post-Flowers (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Sarah Thomas]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080331/trees-f.shtml Ki Do (The Way of the Trees)] (Strange Horizons, 31 March 2008)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], The City of Blind Delight (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Catherynne M. Valente]], Palimpsest (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[Kaaron Warren]], Down to the Silver Spirits (Paper Cities, Senses Five Press, April 2008)
*[[D. E. Wasden]], The Artificial Sunlight of Memory (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Susan Wardle]], The Children’s Crusade (Andromeda Spaceways, February 2008)
*[[Catherine Wells]], Ghost Town (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[K. D. Wentworth]], Exit Strategy (F&SF, March 2008)
*[[Leslie What]], #1 (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kate Wilhelm]], The Fountain of Neptune (F&SF, April 2008)
*[[Genevieve Williams]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080310/running-f.shtml Kip, Running] (Strange Horizons, 10 March 2008)
*[[Maggie L. Wood]], [http://coyotewildmag.com/2008/august/wood_fallen.html Fallen] (Coyote Wild, August 2008)
*[[Sharon E. Woods]], Bull (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Erzebet YellowBoy]], Waiting at the Window (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)

=== Novelettes ===
Hugo eligible; Hugo rules say a novelette is roughly 7,500-17,500 words, which may count as a novella for the World Fantasy and Stoker, or a short story for the World Fantasy or Sturgeon

*[[Elizabeth Bear]]
**Shoggoths in Bloom (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Beth Bernobich]]
**Air and Angels (Subterranean Online, Spring 2008)
**Pig, Crane, Fox: Three Hearts Unfolding (Magic in the Mirrorstone, Mirrorstone Books, February 2008)
**The Golden Octopus (Postscripts #15, August 2008)
*[[Samantha Cope]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080915/cowboy_angel-f.shtml Cowboy Angel] (Strange Horizons, 15 September 2008)
*[[Carol Emshwiller]]
**Master of the Road to Nowhere (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Kathleen Ann Goonan]], Memory Dog (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[Ann Leckie]], The God of Au (Helix, April 2008)
*[[Tanith Lee]], The Beautiful and Damned by F. Scott Fitzgerald (Asimov's, January 2008)
*[[Meghan McCarron]], [http://www.strangehorizons.com/2008/20080714/magician-f.shtml The Magician's House] (Strange Horizons, 14 July 2008)
*[[Jennifer Pelland]], Brushstrokes (Unwelcome Bodies, February 2008)
*[[Vandana Singh]], Oblivion: A Journey (Clockwork Phoenix, ed. Mike Allen, July 2008)
*[[Leslie Claire Walker]], Your Blood (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Kate Wilhelm]], Strangers When We Meet (Asimov's, April/May 2008)

=== Novellas ===
Hugo, Stoker, Locus and World Fantasy eligible; Hugo rules say a novella is roughly 17,500-40,000 words, World Fantasy is 10,000-40,000 words

*[[Catherine Asaro]], The Spacetime Pool (Analog, March 2008)
*[[Carolyn Ives Gilman]], Arkfall (F&SF, September 2008)
*[[Ann Miller]], Retrospect (F&SF, February 2008)
*[[Vera Nazarian]], The Duke in His Castle (Norilana Books, June 2008)
*[[Kristine Kathryn Rusch]], The Room of Lost Souls (Asimov's, April/May 2008)

== Non-Fiction ==

=== Related Books ===
Hugo, Stoker (as Non-Fiction) and Locus eligible, non-fiction book relating to the genre

*[[Farah Mendlesohn]], ''Rhetorics of Fantasy'' (April 2008, Wesleyan University Press)

== Poetry ==

=== Poem ===
Stoker eligible

*[[Elizabeth Barrette]], ''With Every Fine and Subtle Sense Perceive'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Ruth Berman]], ''Snow Angels'' (Asimov's, March 2008)
*[[Lida Broadhurst]], ''Asylum'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Miranda Gaw]], ''Last Supper'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Erin Hoffman]], ''Hyldegarde Speaks to Jacqueline'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)
*[[Pam McNew]], ''No Word for Goodbye'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Joanne Merriam]], ''Death on Other Planets'' (Asimov's, April/May 2008)
*[[Adrienne J. Odasso]], ''River Girl'' (Sybil's Garage #5, April 2008)
*[[Sonya Taaffe]], ''Evighed'' (Electric Velocipede #14, May 2008)

=== Long Poem ===
Rhysling eligible

=== Short Poem ===
Rhysling eligible

== Film and Television ==

=== Dramatic Presentation, Long Form ===
Hugo eligible

=== Dramatic Presentation, Short Form ===
Hugo eligible

* ''[[Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles]]'' episodes:
** ''Queen's Gambit'' written by [[Natalie Chaidez]], first aired February 11, 2008
** ''The Demon Hand'' written by [[Toni Graphia]], first aired February 25, 2008

* ''[[Torchwood]]'' episodes:
** ''To the Last Man'' written by [[Helen Raynor]], first aired January 30, 2008
** ''Meat'' written by [[Catherine Tregenna]], first aired February 6, 2008
** ''Adam'' written by [[Catherine Tregenna]], first aired February 13, 2008

=== Script ===
Nebula eligible

[[Category:Works]]
[[Category:Writers]]
[[category:Women writers]]
[[Category:Awards]]

[[category:Lists of works|Women]]

Let's You and Her Fight (WisCon 31 panel)

2009-12-16T16:32:02Z

Liz Henry:

[[Let's You and Her Fight (WisCon 31 panel)|143 Let's You And Her Fight]]

Feminism, Sex, and Gender•634• Sunday, 10:00-11:15 a.m.

Last year there was a panel about how to flirt at WisCon. This year let's do one on how to fight at WisCon. It's not bad to want to get along; but it is when that urge causes us not to speak our minds in public, and leaves us grumbling in private. How do you speak up and explain that you think the respected panel member is talking out of her hat, while maintaining a friendly attitude towards someone who is, after all, a fellow feminist and fan? Let's practice.

M: [[Alan Bostick]], [[Liz Henry]], [[Steven E. Schwartz]]

==Notes, reports, etc.==
* [http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/139383.html Vito-excalibur]

[[Category:WisCon 31 panels]]

Sexism: A Spotter's Guide (WisCon 31 panel)

2009-12-16T16:31:11Z

Liz Henry:

[[Sexism: A Spotter's Guide (WisCon 31 panel)|70 Sexism: A Spotter's Guide]]

Feminism, Sex, and Gender•Capitol B• Saturday, 1:00-2:15 p.m.

It's relatively clear what makes a work feminist—relatively—but in these days of more subtle sexism, when at least lip service to equality is required, what makes a work non-feminist, or anti-feminist?

M: [[Lyda Morehouse]], [[M. J. Hardman]], [[Betsy Lundsten]], [[Graham Sleight]]

==Reports, notes, etc.==
* [http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/139383.html vito-excalibur]
* [http://fullygoldy.livejournal.com/90314.html fullgoldy]

[[Category:WisCon 31 panels]]

Alternate history

2009-11-02T15:56:14Z

Liz Henry: /* Selected alternate history works */

'''Alternate history''' (also called "alternative history", "allohistory", "uchronie" (French)) is a subgenre of SF that takes Earth history and changes some aspect of it. Compare with [[historical fantasy]], in which there is an earth-history setting with fantastic elements (e.g., ''[[Sorcery and Cecilia, or, The Enchanted Chocolate Pot]]'')

Works of alternative history have been written almost as long as works of history and fantasy. Modern science fiction has added time travel and parallel universe stories to the panoply of "what-if" stories.

==Selected alternate history works==
* [[Steven Barnes]], ''[[Lion's Blood]]'' and ''[[Zulu Heart]]''
* [[Elizabeth Bear]], ''[[New Amsterdam]]''
* [[Michael Chabon]], ''[[The Yiddish Policeman's Union]]''
* [[Mary Gentle]], White Crow & Ash: A Secret History
* [[Ian R. MacLeod]], ''[[The Summer Isles]]''
* [[Jo Walton]], ''[[Farthing]]'', ''[[Ha'Penny]]'', ''[[Half a Crown]]''

===Alternate history works with non-real elements===
These are arguably historical fantasy but they don't feel fantastic.
* [[Naomi Novik]], ''[[Temeraire]]'' (''His Majesty's Dragon'' in the US), ''[[Throne of Jade]]'', ''[[Black Powder War]]'', ''[[Empire of Ivory]]'' (alternate history + dragons)
* [[Kim Stanley Robinson]], ''[[Years of Rice and Salt]]'' (alternate history + reincarnation)

==Discussions, critiques==
*[http://io9.com/384951/a-crash-course-in-alternate-history-novels A Crash Course in Alternate History Novels], [[Annalee Newitz]], ''io9'' 2008/4/28
*[http://al-zorra.livejournal.com/303453.html Alternate History As Conceived Of By Fan Boys], al-zorra, 2008/4/28 (commenting on io9 post)

==See also==
* [[Sidewise Awards]] for alternate history works
* [[:Category:Works of alternate history]]
* [[Historical fantasy]]

[[Category:Genres]]
[[Category:Alternate history| ]]

James Tiptree, Jr.

2009-05-14T03:37:54Z

Liz Henry: /* External Links */

[[Image:JamesTiptree-1945.jpg|thumb|right|100px|Alice Sheldon in 1945]]

'''James Tiptree, Jr.''' is the pseudonym (1967 to death in 1987) of '''Alice Hastings Bradley Sheldon''', born Alice Hastings Bradley, retired Major Alice Davey after WWII, erstwhile CIA photointelligence operative, Ph.D. in psychology, and therefore no stranger to name changes and aliases even before she began publishing science fiction under the Tiptree pseudonym.

She also published as Raccoona Sheldon (1974-1977).

The [[James Tiptree, Jr. Award]] was named after her.

==names==
* James Tiptree, Jr., pseudonym, 1967-1987
* Raccoona Sheldon, pseudonym, 1974-1977
* Alice Hastings Bradley (birth name)
* Alice Davey (first married name)
* Alice Hastings Bradley Sheldon (full married name)

==Biography==
Born to Mary Hastings Bradley (a writer) and Herbert Bradley (a lawyer and naturalist), Tiptree spent her childhood traveling with her parents. Her mother, [[Mary Hastings Bradley]], published two books about Alice's travels, ''Alice in Jungleland'' and ''Alice in Elephantland'', to which Alice (then Hastings Bradley) contributed illustations.

At 19 (1934) she married William Davey. In 1941 she and Davey divorced, and she joined the US Army soon after (in 1942), working in intelligence. She married Huntington Sheldon in 1945, resigned from the military in 1946, ran a small business until 1952 when she and her husband joined the CIA, and then returned to college ultimately completing a Ph.D. at George Washington University in 1967 in experimental psychology. On May 19, 1987, she shot her ailing husband and then herself, having suffered from depression through much of her adult life.

Although Tiptree was married to men through most of her adult life, she was more of a bisexual. "I like some men a lot, but from the start, before I knew anything, it was always girls and women who lit me up."

She published her first story ("[[The Lucky Ones (Tiptree story)|The Lucky Ones]]") in ''[[The New Yorker]]'', Nov. 16, 1946 issue, credited variously as "Alice Bradley" and "Alice Bradley Sheldon". In 1967 she adopted the James Tiptree, Jr. pseudonym, consciously using a male name. While widely known to be a pseudonym, most people assumed the writer was male. [[Harlan Ellison]] introduced Tiptree's story, "[[The Milk of Paradise]]", in ''[[Again, Dangerous Visions]]'', saying that "[[Kate Wilhelm|Wilhelm]] is the woman to beat this year, but Tiptree is the man." [[Robert Silverberg]] described Tiptree's writing as "ineluctibly masculine" in his 1975 introduction to ''[[Warm Worlds and Otherwise]]'', attempting to dispel rumors that Tiptree was female. He described the notion that Tiptree was a woman as "absurd", a notion brought about by some people who thought it impossible for a man to be as clue-ful about women as Tiptree's writing. [[Theodore Sturgeon]] described Tiptree as the male equivalent of the great new female writers of the 1970s.<ref>[[Susan Shwartz]], "Women and Science Fiction", ''NYT'', 1982/5/2</ref>

When Tiptree's [[Mary Hastings Bradley|mother]] died in 1976, Tiptree mentioned the death; enterprising fans found the obituary and [[outing|outed]] Tiptree as Alice.

== Bibliography ==

See [[Complete bibliography of James Tiptree, Jr.]]

=== Novels ===
*''[[Brightness Falls from the Air]]'' ([[1985]])
*''[[Up the Walls of the World]]'' ([[1978]])

=== Short Story Collections ===
*''[[Ten Thousand Light-Years From Home]]'' ([[1973]])
*''[[Warm Worlds and Otherwise]]'' ([[1975]])
*''[[Star Songs of an Old Primate]]'' ([[1978]])
*''[[Out of the Everywhere, and Other Extraordinary Visions]]'' ([[1981]])
*''[[Byte Beautiful|Byte Beautiful: Eight Science Fiction Stories]]'' (1985)
*''[[The Starry Rift]]'' ([[1986]])
*''[[Tales of the Quintana Roo]]'' ([[1986]])
*''[[Crown of Stars]]'' ([[1988]])
*''[[Her Smoke Rose Up Forever (collection)|Her Smoke Rose Up Forever]]'' ([[1990]])

=== Notable Short Stories ===
* [[Mama Come Home]] (1968, originally as "The Mother Ship")
* [[The Last Flight of Doctor Ain]] (1969)
* [[Your Haploid Heart]] (1969)
* [[Love Is the Plan the Plan Is Death]] ([[1973]])
* [[The Women Men Don't See]] ([[1973]])
* [[A Momentary Taste of Being]] ([[1975]])
* [[Your Faces, O My Sisters! Your Faces Filled of Light!]] ([[1976]], published under the name [[Raccoona Sheldon]])
* [[Houston, Houston, Do You Read?]] ([[1976]])
* [[The Screwfly Solution]] ([[1977]], published under the name [[Raccoona Sheldon]])
* [[And I Awoke and Found Me Here on the Cold Hill Side]] (1978)
* [[She Waits for All Men Born]]
* [[With Delicate Mad Hands]]
* [[The Girl Who Was Plugged In]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

== Further reading ==
* ''[[James Tiptree, Jr.: The Double Life of Alice B. Sheldon]]'', by [[Julie Phillips]].

==External Links==
* http://davidlavery.net/Tiptree/
* [http://www.usmm.net/avc-mast45.html American Veterans Committee Organizes veterans 1945] -- mentions Capt. Alice B. Davey, WAC
* [http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/photo_album/1920s/187tigerart.html] -- Childhood photo of Alice Bradley at school.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Tiptree, James, Jr.}}

[[Category:1915 births]]
[[category:1987 deaths]]
[[category:Women writers]]
[[category:Hugo Award winning authors]]
[[category:Nebula Award winning authors]]
[[category:Writers]]

Talk:Micole Iris Sudberg

2009-03-06T18:41:11Z

Liz Henry: place holder.

This is a talk page.

RaceFail 09

2009-03-06T15:05:21Z

Liz Henry: Protected "RaceFail 09" [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]

'''RaceFail 09''' is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and [[racism]] in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ].

:Bear explains her thoughts on writing "The Other", and advises other writer on how to write diverse characters without [[tokenizing]] them. In the comments, many writers agree and thank her for bringing up the subject. Questioning and of Bear's positioning of her white [[privilege]] and her understanding of [[intersectionality]] begins [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30738095#t30738095 in this comments thread] by [[deepad]], [[rydra_wong]], [[shewhohashope]], [[Avalon's Willow]], and others.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html The Magical Other], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

mac_stone's post about child abuse, which gave a checklist of warning signs that a person is abusive, and compared the critiques of mac_stone in LJ comments to emotional abuse patterns, including attributing intentions of meaning to a person that they deny, ie [[false consciousness]]. (pnh may have commented on this post about people not being smart). (screencaps anyone?)

(some other stuff here)

January 19, 2009: [[copracat]], assuming pnh's comment on mac_stone's post was made with [http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/487308.html?thread=2088076#t2088076 knowledge of the context of discussion being held], posted about it [http://copracat.livejournal.com/449470.html in her LJ]. The comments to this post appear to be pnh's only remaining public comments in RaceFail 09.

(including pnh and others commenting on copracat's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI LJ]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html Teresa Nielsen Hayden's original post on LJ]: now [[flock|friends-locked]].</ref>

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

(Include some of the apologies made by Bear, Monette, Shetterly, and others)

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Elizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction & fantasy writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[copracat]] "<ref>[http://copracat.livejournal.com/profile copracat LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[tacky_tramp]] <ref>[http://tacky_tramp.livejournal.com/profile tacky_tramp LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito_excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[troll]] or [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website
* [[pantslessness]] or "not wearing pants" or "showing one's ass"

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]
* [[Harry Potter miscegenation prompt]] - racist fic prompt from a fanfic community

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09| ]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Micole Iris Sudberg

2009-03-06T15:04:43Z

Liz Henry: Protected "Micole Iris Sudberg" [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]

'''Micole Iris Sudberg''' is a blogger who has published several fantasy short stories. She was formerly an Assistant Editor at [[Tor Books]]<ref>[http://www.tarakharper.com/k_factor.htm#writing TARA K. HARPER WRITER'S WORKSHOP: Factors that Influence the Success of a Book]</ref> who assisted [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] and worked with several consulting editors such as [[Terri Windling]], [[Delia Sherman]], and [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]]. She no longer works in publishing.

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sudberg, Micole Iris}}
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:Year of birth missing]]
[[Category:Bloggers]]
[[category:Editors]]
{{stub}}

Luke Jackson

2009-03-06T15:03:56Z

Liz Henry: Protected "Luke Jackson" [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed]

'''Luke Jackson''' is a Los Angeles attorney, sometime writer, and online troll.

Notable events:

Kicked off the [[Helix magazine incident]] by posting text from a rejection letter he was sent<ref>[http://tempest.fluidartist.com/2008/07/07/william-sanders-senior-bigot-helix/ Tempest's post on the ''Helix'' incident]</ref> by ''Helix'' senior editor [[William Sanders]].

During [[RaceFail 09]], trolled under the names darkerblogistan<ref>http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/</ref> and igorsanchez<ref>http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/</ref>. After [[Kynn]] connected the name igorsanchez to the name Luke Jackson<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/how-sexual-harassment-lawyers-spend-their-free-time/ Kynn's post on the identity of igorsanchez]</ref>, attempted to post [[Kynn]]'s contact information to the internet, but failed to successfully locate it<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/its-like-internet-troll-limbo-or-something/ Kynn's post on the unsuccessful outing]</ref>.

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

Luke Jackson

2009-03-06T15:03:06Z

Liz Henry: Reverted edits by 71.106.190.55 (Talk) to last version by Vito excalibur

Micole Iris Sudberg

2009-03-06T15:00:44Z

Liz Henry: Reverted edits by 38.100.42.114 (Talk) to last version by Pleasantville

Talk:Kathryn Cramer

2009-03-06T06:01:16Z

Liz Henry:

In light of Kathryn Cramer's [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/902704.html?mode=reply attacks] on [[coffeeandink]] I would recommend that her contributions (she is [[User:Pleasantville]]) be watched carefully to prevent or remediate further damage. ([http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/903696.html More info] -- and the issue is ongoing.) --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 08:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:::ETA: [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/901816.html?mode=reply This is the first entry I meant to link to], rather than the URL under the "attacks" link above -- that was a copy-paste error. The second link (under "more info") is correct, but there were a lot of close together entries on the same subjet on coffeeandink's LJ and I think I mis-selected when copying. None of this changes the intention behind my initial statement. --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 05:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Ide, thanks, I think that clarifies things. When I finally followed the link up there tonight, I didn't see how it could apply to what you were saying. But the other link is relevant. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 06:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

:What damage are you speaking of? The party in question has libeled me on this point and I have filed a complaint with her ISP. Her claims of "attacks" are untrue. Are you perhaps propagating further [[Character assassination|defamation of my character]]?

:[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]], I suggest you make links to particular edits in this Wiki if you wish to claim I have "damaged" this Wiki. Otherwise, please retract your statement and apologize, since such a claim is defamatory. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 15:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Hi Kathryn. Actually, wiki admins and sys ops are watching your contributions to the wiki. We keep an eye on recent changes in general, and we "watch" pages we think might be controversial. Ide Cyan as one of the wiki's more active users has, in my view, usefully pointed out possible difficulty. Are you threatening or preparing to sue people for libel or defamation? That is certainly interesting. If so, you may want to pause and talk to a lawyer about your course of action, before further participating in this wiki. We would like for you not to threaten people with legal actions on the wiki. Please cool it down. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you unconcerned about defamation? The links and the claim were defamatory. Please remove them. You are an admin. I did not threaten. Rather I ask for you to do something.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Hi Kathryn. It's a wiki. You can take stuff off your talk page if you like. Go for it. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 22:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: A couple hours later. I have a second to breathe and engage. Can you clarify what is bothering you or that you want me to do here? Is it a question of people moderating language in words like "attack" or "damage"? --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Oyceter

2009-03-06T03:46:49Z

Liz Henry: wikified a couple of names

Oyceter is a blogger [http://oyceter.livejournal.com], fan, and sf critic. She co-founded the blogging project [[International Blog Against Racism Week]][http://community.livejournal.com/ibarw/] with [[Coffeeandink]], minnow1212, [[Rachel Manija Brown]], [[Livia Penn]], and Rilina.

Please do not link her full name to this pseudonym.

[[Category:Bloggers]]
[[Category:Fans]]
[[Category:Critics]]
[[Category:Pseudonymous people]]
[[Category:WOC]]

Talk:Kathryn Cramer

2009-03-05T23:14:45Z

Liz Henry: clarification request

In light of Kathryn Cramer's [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/902704.html?mode=reply attacks] on [[coffeeandink]] I would recommend that her contributions (she is [[User:Pleasantville]]) be watched carefully to prevent or remediate further damage. ([http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/903696.html More info] -- and the issue is ongoing.) --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 08:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:What damage are you speaking of? The party in question has libeled me on this point and I have filed a complaint with her ISP. Her claims of "attacks" are untrue. Are you perhaps propagating further [[Character assassination|defamation of my character]]?

:[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]], I suggest you make links to particular edits in this Wiki if you wish to claim I have "damaged" this Wiki. Otherwise, please retract your statement and apologize, since such a claim is defamatory. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 15:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Hi Kathryn. Actually, wiki admins and sys ops are watching your contributions to the wiki. We keep an eye on recent changes in general, and we "watch" pages we think might be controversial. Ide Cyan as one of the wiki's more active users has, in my view, usefully pointed out possible difficulty. Are you threatening or preparing to sue people for libel or defamation? That is certainly interesting. If so, you may want to pause and talk to a lawyer about your course of action, before further participating in this wiki. We would like for you not to threaten people with legal actions on the wiki. Please cool it down. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:21, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you unconcerned about defamation? The links and the claim were defamatory. Please remove them. You are an admin. I did not threaten. Rather I ask for you to do something.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: Hi Kathryn. It's a wiki. You can take stuff off your talk page if you like. Go for it. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 22:23, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:: A couple hours later. I have a second to breathe and engage. Can you clarify what is bothering you or that you want me to do here? Is it a question of people moderating language in words like "attack" or "damage"? --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Kathryn Cramer

2009-03-05T22:23:25Z

Liz Henry:

Feminist SF Wiki talk:Privacy policy

2009-03-05T18:59:18Z

Liz Henry: Identity protection

Laura, thanks for making a start on this, with the weight of your position as webmistress to underline the credibility of this (preliminary, but still mattering) policy draft.

I see though that you have approached the matter of pseudonyms from the perspective of looking at someone who knows a person under their legal name revealing that other person's pseudonymous identity. I don't know how I can phrase this more clearly...(See the nota bene for another qualification.) Of bringing someone's pseudonymous identity to light in a way that will have repercussions on their life under their legal name, that will make it known to other people who know the person under that person's legal name. That's is one way of looking at things, but from the other side, the side from which I've been looking at the developments of [[Racefail 09]], I was looking at someone revealing the legal name of a person in the context of interactions done under a pseudonym, and bringing their legal identity to the attention of people familiar with that person's pseudonym.

Put together, both perspectives describe the same act, and that act has consequences that go in both directions (affecting as they do the person [[outing|outed]], whose circumstances affect how they interact under each identity; and the consequences of the outing ripple out in the communities the outing reaches, which can overlap), but I strongly feel that it's important to formulate the matter both ways, because knowing the legal name of someone who has standing under a (or several) pseudonym doesn't qualititatively feel important the same way as knowing the pseudonym(s) of someone for the purposes of interacting with them under their legal name(s).

I would simply edit the entry to add the complementary aspect, but, you being the lawyer, I was wondering if you were taking a particular law-related approach in formulating this policy, which would influence the importance of wording it one way instead of the other.

N.B.: I say legal vs. pseudonymous for lack of better words because I also don't want to link either perspective exclusively to the terms public or private, although that might be a question where you also have legal vocabulary issues in mind. The distinction seems too muddled to me -- people using pseudonyms aren't necessarily interacting in private, although the circles where the pseudonymous identity is relevent may seem private by their being specialised forums instead of general or unmarked forums. And the legal identities, ''not'' the pseudonymous identities, particularly in the examples I can think of, of the people outed, are often the private sites that are put at risk from an outing.

Do you have any recommendations or considerations on these questions of perspective?

--[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 04:28, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
: I want to respond quickly, so nobody is waiting on me; but it's too late at night for me to give this all the attention it deserves. I'll come back tomorrow if I can.

: Very good points, Ide Cyan, and let me encourage you to make any / all the changes you think are appropriate. I dashed this draft off and I think you are probably correct that I was mostly thinking of it in one direction. I was not intending to take a particular law-oriented approach, and in fact tried to be relatively non-legalistic. But the legal training inescapably informs how I look at issues, so .... Anyway, do please feel free to edit as you like. If I notice anything in later changes that poses some issue viewed thru a legal lens I'll flag it, but, honestly, law isn't rocket science: it's a lot of obfuscatory language but usually careful reading is perfectly sufficient. And you're definitely one of the more careful readers here! <smile>

: You're also right to flag the distinctions between legal, pseudonymous, and other identities. I considered discussing anonymity in there too, but ended up leaving it out, since we're mostly considering stable identities and how and whether they ought to be connected. It may be the case that we note that pseudonyms and legal names are particular cases of identities, but there are many types and shadings of identities, and we just have to adapt principles as best we can to various situations.

: Hope this is on point & not too confusing. Busy tomorrow, but hopefully will be able to check back in again in the afternoon or evening (US eastern time).

: --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 05:26, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::Thanks for responding. It's waaay too late for me to be thinking straight at the moment too, so I won't be making any edits yet (I think I momentarily strained my English-language expression abilities writing the above earlier), but one other thing that occured to me in reading your response & with recent excellent critical RaceFail-related commentary in mind is that the drafting of the Wiki's policies should also be advertised as open for input -- ''and'' influence -- where the word would reach more people of colour / non-white fans, and other oppressed parties that could best express what form of policy would make them feel safer, since you & I are white and we cannot draw up a comprehensive policy without input from people whose oppressions we do not know/share first-hand ourselves. (And attempting to do so can only go so far before stumbling over the difference between liberal and radical endeavours.)

::So, I'm thinking -- at least a post on the blog, and perhaps I could put something up on Whileaway, although even that would circumscribe the discussion & it needs to go wider. And now mon anglais s'épuise alors dodo maintenant ou bedon qqch d plus facile...

::--[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 06:06, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

::: By all means, publicize this discussion or any other in any appropriate fora. I for one am always happy when other people do outreach / recruiting / promotions, since I suck at it .... My general assumption is that by putting things in wiki form we are basically stating our openness to discussion / dialog / community-driven editing, but of course merely being available is not sufficient in a world infested with various privileges and lack thereof. So, recruit away .... --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 18:00, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
: A quick note because I need to do my regular day job at the moment. The [[OTW]] and [[Fanlore]] have a very good set of policies we could look at as a model. I especially like their [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Identity Protection policy] and its emphasis on protection and proof of consensuality. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 18:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Kathryn Cramer

2009-03-05T17:43:47Z

Liz Henry: edited to add request that no further legal threats be made on this wiki.

Talk:Kathryn Cramer

2009-03-05T17:21:08Z

Liz Henry: Asking Kathryn about her use of litigious terms

User talk:Vito excalibur

2009-03-04T15:07:27Z

Liz Henry:

what was all this anon ip vandalism of tempest, relating to luke bradford etc? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 14:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm? What I noticed was on Feb 23rd I see from the Recent Changes page, someone at 69.198.91.53 changed Tempest's page to call her mediocre & also changed darkerblogistan's & Luke Jackson's (is that who you meant?) page to call him a genius, so I figured it was him. Was there more than that? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 14:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
::Whoa. I completely missed that. It certainly sounds like him. Thanks for catching it! --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 15:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-03-03T20:23:22Z

Liz Henry: /* Names and pseudonyms */

=Internal Links for Blog Post Titles=

I thought it would be a good idea for each of the major blog posts (particularly those that have disappeared from the public Internet) to have its own page where we can call out highlights, important threads, and individual comments that sparked other discussions/posts, etc. That will keep the main timeline page pretty clear and straightforward. -KTempest

:It's a good idea, though copyright restrictions may apply. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] aka [[Kathryn Cramer]]16:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: I think it is fair use, as these posts have been quoted and responded to and are part of public discourse. I'm not the expert on that though. 8-) --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::The general rule of thumb for fair use is quoting 150 words. On my blog, I don't sweat this and on rare occasions when it becomes an issue I either remove the content, pay a fee for use, or both, but Wikis can exist only because of the willingness to put things under a free license (in this case GNU Free Documentation License 1.2), so in general one should adhere to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use guidelines]. ([http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml LJ's ToS] state the material is copyright by its author, which is as I expected.)--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't say that rule of thumb is appropriate here (and I'd be curious of the context from which it is drawn: I'm guessing the publishing industry. "Best practices" frequently become far more normative than they were originally intended to be when it comes to fair use, and don't translate well to other contexts.). Fair use is a defence, not a hard and fast rule, and while this isn't legal advice, I'd suggest that Pleasantville's approach on her own blog is the best: don't sweat it. If someone is upset at being quoted, there are plenty of forms of conciliation that can be used before IP law needs to be invoked. Calling out (linking to) content would be almost certainly fine, copying-and-pasting beyond what's necessary for review and analysis will gradually shade into other issues. Our stuff on Chilling Effects on the [[http://www.chillingeffects.org/fairuse/faq.cgi Fair Use factors]] may be of use. --[[User:Mala|Mala]] 23:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Copyright attorney / co-admin of the FSFwiki weighing in: 150 is a rule of thumb adopted by some people / organizations, but it is just that -- a voluntary rule of thumb. It in no way reflects the state of the law, which is probably better termed, "as much as needed for a legitimate purpose." Documenting an event and the views, and important language that comes up, is unquestionably important; and so long as individual passages are not unnecessarily included (for instance, to try to or with the effect of supplanting the original) then I think we're okay. In short, it is a fact-specific analysis, and thus we can make our own assessment on a case-by-case basis. No rules of thumb apply. I feel very strongly about this. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::I envisioned that whole posts would be pasted in when they were no longer available at their original location but were, at one point, public. Like Teresa's post. Otherwise, readers can click to the original to read the whole thing but stay on the page to see important highlights and get the gist of the discussion. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)\
::::: That works for me. I'm going to take out the full text of things like David Levine's post which are still up, and replace it with links to the original. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

=Names and pseudonyms=

I'm really not digging this distinction between the pseudonyms and the driver's license names. Is this necessary, and if so, why?
- vito excalibur
:Yes. Since it is important to know who is speaking, and for half the participants, we don't. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 17:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: This was one the sub-issues raised in the events being documented, and so I personally disagree on the wiki taking a position on it here. --Kate Nepveu

::: There's really no way not to take a position on it: either we separate the names or we don't. -- vito excalibur

:::: I don't see any point in separating people out under different headings. If the person has, themselves, associated their real name with their screen name or pen name, or if it is common public knowledge (as it is for my screen name of badgerbag), list one with the other(s) right next to it and alphabetize under the name you think people are most commonly known by. If there are pages for both identities, link them to each other or make a redirect page. By the way, to make this nifty name/time stamp, click the signature-looking thing in the little toolbar above the edit text input window, and it will magically appear.. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::: Yeah, I put that badly. Let me rephrase: I disagree with Kathryn Cramer that the distinction was necessary or useful. And now I see that it's been changed while I was off. -- Kate Nepveu
::::::I think it sort of speaks for itself anyway.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Which "we" is this? I don't need to know what name corresponds to a pseudonym in order to address that pseudonym's arguments. One of the central arguments in the debate was whether it was appropriate to use pseudonyms; outing someone who has explicitly chosen to be anonymous is cheap, and assumes a premise that was actually being debated. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Seconded. I'm removing the outings. If you need to know who coffeeandink is, you can look at her *years* of public postings. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of why this is necessary, I ask: Is it widely known, for example, that [[coffeeandink]] used to work at Tor, where she reported to [[pnh]]? (I presume it's not, since she doesn't include that job on her LinkedIn page.) People don't just spring into existence when they make up pseudonyms. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
: Pleasantville, if you think it's so important, why don't you just put that on her wiki page? I don't see why that requires people to be divided into separate categories on this page. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::I did already. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not seeing why it's necessary to know that. coffeeandink's many years of posting about race, cultural appropriation, fandom, writing, internet drama, and massive fail stand firmly behind anything she has said in this particular discussion about Patrick, teresa, or anyone else involved. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::: I've just deleted the link to the LinkedIn page in your comment because [[coffeeandink]] does not want her LJ to be Googleable and connected to her full name. I hope we can respect that wish. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think that we can put that bit in about employment, which Pleasantville wants to be clear to outline some of the complexities of people's relationships. But I would like us to respect people's choices about pseudonymity as best we can. The need for anonymity is one of the reasons that women's history is hard to document. Let's do the best we can here. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: I was formulating an argument along these lines in the car on the way home, but you did it better. Thank you. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 02:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have my full name on my LJ because it's unique and I don't want it Google-able. Please remove the redirect and the page account.

I feel my first name is sufficiently unusual that people who are looking for the connection can draw it on their own.(request from coffeeandink 2009-02-06T17:38:53)

: Uh, yeeeahh. Speaking of which, does this Wiki have an outing policy? (Rather, an anti-outing policy?) Because if it doesn't, I foresee difficulties with outreach to media fannish communities. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. We have [[FSFwiki:Privacy]], but perhaps it needs to be more specific. (Philosophically, I don't bother with pushing policy until it's an issue.) Veejane, do you have any examples? Or would you like to edit the [[FSFwiki:Privacy|current privacy policy]]? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Neither of those wikilinks goes anywhere. The policy appears to be [[FSFwiki:Privacy_policy|here]] and about a sentence long. (I also think it should be linked from the Getting Started page, since a privacy policy is baseline information for my attitude towards a site.) You've had one outing, above, and I can still find that outing by comparing the history of edits. So although the identifying data have been deleted from the page, they're still there for anyone to find. Basically, the outing is still occurring even now. By contrast, another wiki I've worked on, [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Fanlore], has a policy that not only requires removal of outing data, but also hides those particular edits from the history, so the data can't be recovered. It might also be worth asking what tools admins have to control malicious outing. Will that fall under a harassment policy? I.... can't find a harassment policy. This all sounds paranoid, I realize. But better to have a policy and not need it than be flailing in the middle of an emergency without one.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Veejane, no need to apologize for pushing for things like an outing policy and a harassment policy; they are things the wiki should probably have. I suspect it just hasn't needed them before now. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is minor, but related to the overall "real name" discussion. Is there a reason why Elizabeth Bear's full name is after her pen name on the page? It's not as if she is known by her full name (she's been going by Elizabeth Bear and eBear since I've known her, lo these 10 years), nor is knowing her full name of use in the conversation. She's not hiding, it's not a "fan name" (not that I think we necessarily need to connect fan names to "real names"), so why is it necessary? --Tempest
: Fair enough, I'ma take it out. Do you think she wouldn't want it up there and it should be a "hide from edit" thing, or just take it out? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
: It looks like she's completely comfortable with it -- I Googled the pair of their names and there's an interview with her whose first paragraph gives her real name. [http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/authors/from_shakespeare_to_ragnarok_elizabeth_bear_keeps_busy_91271.asp] On the other hand, I don't know why the legal name is necessary in the Wiki. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 18:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not saying she'd be uncomfortable with it. It's not as if her real name is a secret, anyway. My larger point was: why was it there? Was it just due to the anti-pseudonym thing? This is one of the problems I have with the anti-pseud thing. Sometimes the real/legal name of a person is not necessary to identify them, what they say around the internet and in real life, etc. To use myself as an example, Tempest is no part of my legal name, and yet almost everyone in the SF/F community knows me by that name. Almost everything I write and do is connected to it. Thus, I'm not hiding, I'm just using a name I chose for myself. It's very much the same for people who go by fan names, I think. Even if your name is not Willow Wren, if that's what everyone knows you as, then it might as well be your real name for the purpose of identifying you and the things you have to say. --Tempest

When someone hides Micole's identity again, I won't correct it. I won't begin a wiki war, and I respect the right of site owners to do what they please. But just for the record: If the point of this wiki is to share information, don't censor the truth. Revise it when you have more information, delete what no longer seems pertinent, sure, but feminists should especially know that double standards stink. -- Will Shetterly, March 2, 2009
: Hi Will. You sure won't start a wiki war here, because I just banned you. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

* Two points. (1) I am not clear on what the double standard that Will is referencing would be. Having a standard that respects privacy, and weighs the costs and benefits of privacy as well as openness of information, does not seem like a "double standard". If, in this discussion, there is someone else who has expressed a desire to not have their pseudonym tied to their real life identity, then we should consider that request just as we have considered coffeeandink's request. To not do so would indeed be a double standard. (And for the record I disagree that double standards in all cases stink. That argument ''might'' be tenable on a so-called level playing field, were such a thing to exist....)

: (2) The addition and subtraction of "the great silliness" is clearly editorial on someone's part. Either it was referred to as "the great silliness" in some significant way, or it wasn't. If it was, then why shouldn't that language be in? If the concern is that all of these terms are implicitly judgmental then the solution is to include a section laying out the terminology & describing the people / positions behind particular terms. Otherwise a footnote (See, e.g., blah blah link blah blah.) should suffice. As it stands we have an assertion by Will that the phrase "the great silliness" was used; I haven't seen any counter-assertion that it was not used. Can someone please confirm or deny the use of this phrase?

: Cheers, Laura Q. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I've missed a lot of the RaceFail discussion as well, but a quick Google search seems to indicate that "the Great Silliness" is a term used only by Will Shetterly himself. Could someone who has more contextual knowledge weigh in on this? If this term wasn't actually used more widely, I would like to delete it. --[[User:JLeland|Therem]] 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I reverted the addition of "the Great Silliness" because it was done in the same batch of edits and by the same person as the attacks on Micole and I saw it as tactic to minimise the subject and therefore a continuance of the attacks.

:: Laura, the supposed "double standard" is deciding whether to link someone's nickname and legal name based on their practice and wishes, rather than naming everyone under the same standard of specious apolitical uniformity (the "level playing field" you mention). See this recent [http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/251935.html?thread=2468127#t2468127 thread] on WS's LiveJournal. --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 12:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He has a fairly long history in feminist/antiracist fandom which some people may not be aware of: [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/881075.html Will Shetterly:Do Not Engage] and there is more from [http://deepad.livejournal.com/33512.html deepad] which influenced my snap decision to ban. I think this is the first ban we've had. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-03-03T20:12:56Z

Liz Henry: /* Names and pseudonyms */

=Internal Links for Blog Post Titles=

I thought it would be a good idea for each of the major blog posts (particularly those that have disappeared from the public Internet) to have its own page where we can call out highlights, important threads, and individual comments that sparked other discussions/posts, etc. That will keep the main timeline page pretty clear and straightforward. -KTempest

:It's a good idea, though copyright restrictions may apply. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] aka [[Kathryn Cramer]]16:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: I think it is fair use, as these posts have been quoted and responded to and are part of public discourse. I'm not the expert on that though. 8-) --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::The general rule of thumb for fair use is quoting 150 words. On my blog, I don't sweat this and on rare occasions when it becomes an issue I either remove the content, pay a fee for use, or both, but Wikis can exist only because of the willingness to put things under a free license (in this case GNU Free Documentation License 1.2), so in general one should adhere to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use guidelines]. ([http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml LJ's ToS] state the material is copyright by its author, which is as I expected.)--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't say that rule of thumb is appropriate here (and I'd be curious of the context from which it is drawn: I'm guessing the publishing industry. "Best practices" frequently become far more normative than they were originally intended to be when it comes to fair use, and don't translate well to other contexts.). Fair use is a defence, not a hard and fast rule, and while this isn't legal advice, I'd suggest that Pleasantville's approach on her own blog is the best: don't sweat it. If someone is upset at being quoted, there are plenty of forms of conciliation that can be used before IP law needs to be invoked. Calling out (linking to) content would be almost certainly fine, copying-and-pasting beyond what's necessary for review and analysis will gradually shade into other issues. Our stuff on Chilling Effects on the [[http://www.chillingeffects.org/fairuse/faq.cgi Fair Use factors]] may be of use. --[[User:Mala|Mala]] 23:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Copyright attorney / co-admin of the FSFwiki weighing in: 150 is a rule of thumb adopted by some people / organizations, but it is just that -- a voluntary rule of thumb. It in no way reflects the state of the law, which is probably better termed, "as much as needed for a legitimate purpose." Documenting an event and the views, and important language that comes up, is unquestionably important; and so long as individual passages are not unnecessarily included (for instance, to try to or with the effect of supplanting the original) then I think we're okay. In short, it is a fact-specific analysis, and thus we can make our own assessment on a case-by-case basis. No rules of thumb apply. I feel very strongly about this. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::I envisioned that whole posts would be pasted in when they were no longer available at their original location but were, at one point, public. Like Teresa's post. Otherwise, readers can click to the original to read the whole thing but stay on the page to see important highlights and get the gist of the discussion. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)\
::::: That works for me. I'm going to take out the full text of things like David Levine's post which are still up, and replace it with links to the original. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

=Names and pseudonyms=

I'm really not digging this distinction between the pseudonyms and the driver's license names. Is this necessary, and if so, why?
- vito excalibur
:Yes. Since it is important to know who is speaking, and for half the participants, we don't. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 17:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: This was one the sub-issues raised in the events being documented, and so I personally disagree on the wiki taking a position on it here. --Kate Nepveu

::: There's really no way not to take a position on it: either we separate the names or we don't. -- vito excalibur

:::: I don't see any point in separating people out under different headings. If the person has, themselves, associated their real name with their screen name or pen name, or if it is common public knowledge (as it is for my screen name of badgerbag), list one with the other(s) right next to it and alphabetize under the name you think people are most commonly known by. If there are pages for both identities, link them to each other or make a redirect page. By the way, to make this nifty name/time stamp, click the signature-looking thing in the little toolbar above the edit text input window, and it will magically appear.. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::: Yeah, I put that badly. Let me rephrase: I disagree with Kathryn Cramer that the distinction was necessary or useful. And now I see that it's been changed while I was off. -- Kate Nepveu
::::::I think it sort of speaks for itself anyway.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Which "we" is this? I don't need to know what name corresponds to a pseudonym in order to address that pseudonym's arguments. One of the central arguments in the debate was whether it was appropriate to use pseudonyms; outing someone who has explicitly chosen to be anonymous is cheap, and assumes a premise that was actually being debated. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Seconded. I'm removing the outings. If you need to know who coffeeandink is, you can look at her *years* of public postings. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of why this is necessary, I ask: Is it widely known, for example, that [[coffeeandink]] used to work at Tor, where she reported to [[pnh]]? (I presume it's not, since she doesn't include that job on her LinkedIn page.) People don't just spring into existence when they make up pseudonyms. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
: Pleasantville, if you think it's so important, why don't you just put that on her wiki page? I don't see why that requires people to be divided into separate categories on this page. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::I did already. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not seeing why it's necessary to know that. coffeeandink's many years of posting about race, cultural appropriation, fandom, writing, internet drama, and massive fail stand firmly behind anything she has said in this particular discussion about Patrick, teresa, or anyone else involved. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::: I've just deleted the link to the LinkedIn page in your comment because [[coffeeandink]] does not want her LJ to be Googleable and connected to her full name. I hope we can respect that wish. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think that we can put that bit in about employment, which Pleasantville wants to be clear to outline some of the complexities of people's relationships. But I would like us to respect people's choices about pseudonymity as best we can. The need for anonymity is one of the reasons that women's history is hard to document. Let's do the best we can here. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: I was formulating an argument along these lines in the car on the way home, but you did it better. Thank you. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 02:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have my full name on my LJ because it's unique and I don't want it Google-able. Please remove the redirect and the page account.

I feel my first name is sufficiently unusual that people who are looking for the connection can draw it on their own.(request from coffeeandink 2009-02-06T17:38:53)

: Uh, yeeeahh. Speaking of which, does this Wiki have an outing policy? (Rather, an anti-outing policy?) Because if it doesn't, I foresee difficulties with outreach to media fannish communities. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. We have [[FSFwiki:Privacy]], but perhaps it needs to be more specific. (Philosophically, I don't bother with pushing policy until it's an issue.) Veejane, do you have any examples? Or would you like to edit the [[FSFwiki:Privacy|current privacy policy]]? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Neither of those wikilinks goes anywhere. The policy appears to be [[FSFwiki:Privacy_policy|here]] and about a sentence long. (I also think it should be linked from the Getting Started page, since a privacy policy is baseline information for my attitude towards a site.) You've had one outing, above, and I can still find that outing by comparing the history of edits. So although the identifying data have been deleted from the page, they're still there for anyone to find. Basically, the outing is still occurring even now. By contrast, another wiki I've worked on, [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Fanlore], has a policy that not only requires removal of outing data, but also hides those particular edits from the history, so the data can't be recovered. It might also be worth asking what tools admins have to control malicious outing. Will that fall under a harassment policy? I.... can't find a harassment policy. This all sounds paranoid, I realize. But better to have a policy and not need it than be flailing in the middle of an emergency without one.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Veejane, no need to apologize for pushing for things like an outing policy and a harassment policy; they are things the wiki should probably have. I suspect it just hasn't needed them before now. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is minor, but related to the overall "real name" discussion. Is there a reason why Elizabeth Bear's full name is after her pen name on the page? It's not as if she is known by her full name (she's been going by Elizabeth Bear and eBear since I've known her, lo these 10 years), nor is knowing her full name of use in the conversation. She's not hiding, it's not a "fan name" (not that I think we necessarily need to connect fan names to "real names"), so why is it necessary? --Tempest
: Fair enough, I'ma take it out. Do you think she wouldn't want it up there and it should be a "hide from edit" thing, or just take it out? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
: It looks like she's completely comfortable with it -- I Googled the pair of their names and there's an interview with her whose first paragraph gives her real name. [http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/authors/from_shakespeare_to_ragnarok_elizabeth_bear_keeps_busy_91271.asp] On the other hand, I don't know why the legal name is necessary in the Wiki. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 18:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not saying she'd be uncomfortable with it. It's not as if her real name is a secret, anyway. My larger point was: why was it there? Was it just due to the anti-pseudonym thing? This is one of the problems I have with the anti-pseud thing. Sometimes the real/legal name of a person is not necessary to identify them, what they say around the internet and in real life, etc. To use myself as an example, Tempest is no part of my legal name, and yet almost everyone in the SF/F community knows me by that name. Almost everything I write and do is connected to it. Thus, I'm not hiding, I'm just using a name I chose for myself. It's very much the same for people who go by fan names, I think. Even if your name is not Willow Wren, if that's what everyone knows you as, then it might as well be your real name for the purpose of identifying you and the things you have to say. --Tempest

When someone hides Micole's identity again, I won't correct it. I won't begin a wiki war, and I respect the right of site owners to do what they please. But just for the record: If the point of this wiki is to share information, don't censor the truth. Revise it when you have more information, delete what no longer seems pertinent, sure, but feminists should especially know that double standards stink. -- Will Shetterly, March 2, 2009
: Hi Will. You sure won't start a wiki war here, because I just banned you. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

* Two points. (1) I am not clear on what the double standard that Will is referencing would be. Having a standard that respects privacy, and weighs the costs and benefits of privacy as well as openness of information, does not seem like a "double standard". If, in this discussion, there is someone else who has expressed a desire to not have their pseudonym tied to their real life identity, then we should consider that request just as we have considered coffeeandink's request. To not do so would indeed be a double standard. (And for the record I disagree that double standards in all cases stink. That argument ''might'' be tenable on a so-called level playing field, were such a thing to exist....)

: (2) The addition and subtraction of "the great silliness" is clearly editorial on someone's part. Either it was referred to as "the great silliness" in some significant way, or it wasn't. If it was, then why shouldn't that language be in? If the concern is that all of these terms are implicitly judgmental then the solution is to include a section laying out the terminology & describing the people / positions behind particular terms. Otherwise a footnote (See, e.g., blah blah link blah blah.) should suffice. As it stands we have an assertion by Will that the phrase "the great silliness" was used; I haven't seen any counter-assertion that it was not used. Can someone please confirm or deny the use of this phrase?

: Cheers, Laura Q. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I've missed a lot of the RaceFail discussion as well, but a quick Google search seems to indicate that "the Great Silliness" is a term used only by Will Shetterly himself. Could someone who has more contextual knowledge weigh in on this? If this term wasn't actually used more widely, I would like to delete it. --[[User:JLeland|Therem]] 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I reverted the addition of "the Great Silliness" because it was done in the same batch of edits and by the same person as the attacks on Micole and I saw it as tactic to minimise the subject and therefore a continuance of the attacks.

:: Laura, the supposed "double standard" is deciding whether to link someone's nickname and legal name based on their practice and wishes, rather than naming everyone under the same standard of specious apolitical uniformity (the "level playing field" you mention). See this recent [http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/251935.html?thread=2468127#t2468127 thread] on WS's LiveJournal. --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 12:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: He has a fairly long history in feminist/antiracist fandom which some people may not be aware of:
[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/881075.html Will Shetterly:Do Not Engage] and there is more from [http://deepad.livejournal.com/33512.html deepad] which influenced my snap decision to ban. I think this is the first ban we've had. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-03-03T20:10:40Z

Liz Henry:

=Internal Links for Blog Post Titles=

I thought it would be a good idea for each of the major blog posts (particularly those that have disappeared from the public Internet) to have its own page where we can call out highlights, important threads, and individual comments that sparked other discussions/posts, etc. That will keep the main timeline page pretty clear and straightforward. -KTempest

:It's a good idea, though copyright restrictions may apply. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] aka [[Kathryn Cramer]]16:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: I think it is fair use, as these posts have been quoted and responded to and are part of public discourse. I'm not the expert on that though. 8-) --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::The general rule of thumb for fair use is quoting 150 words. On my blog, I don't sweat this and on rare occasions when it becomes an issue I either remove the content, pay a fee for use, or both, but Wikis can exist only because of the willingness to put things under a free license (in this case GNU Free Documentation License 1.2), so in general one should adhere to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use guidelines]. ([http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml LJ's ToS] state the material is copyright by its author, which is as I expected.)--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't say that rule of thumb is appropriate here (and I'd be curious of the context from which it is drawn: I'm guessing the publishing industry. "Best practices" frequently become far more normative than they were originally intended to be when it comes to fair use, and don't translate well to other contexts.). Fair use is a defence, not a hard and fast rule, and while this isn't legal advice, I'd suggest that Pleasantville's approach on her own blog is the best: don't sweat it. If someone is upset at being quoted, there are plenty of forms of conciliation that can be used before IP law needs to be invoked. Calling out (linking to) content would be almost certainly fine, copying-and-pasting beyond what's necessary for review and analysis will gradually shade into other issues. Our stuff on Chilling Effects on the [[http://www.chillingeffects.org/fairuse/faq.cgi Fair Use factors]] may be of use. --[[User:Mala|Mala]] 23:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Copyright attorney / co-admin of the FSFwiki weighing in: 150 is a rule of thumb adopted by some people / organizations, but it is just that -- a voluntary rule of thumb. It in no way reflects the state of the law, which is probably better termed, "as much as needed for a legitimate purpose." Documenting an event and the views, and important language that comes up, is unquestionably important; and so long as individual passages are not unnecessarily included (for instance, to try to or with the effect of supplanting the original) then I think we're okay. In short, it is a fact-specific analysis, and thus we can make our own assessment on a case-by-case basis. No rules of thumb apply. I feel very strongly about this. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::I envisioned that whole posts would be pasted in when they were no longer available at their original location but were, at one point, public. Like Teresa's post. Otherwise, readers can click to the original to read the whole thing but stay on the page to see important highlights and get the gist of the discussion. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)\
::::: That works for me. I'm going to take out the full text of things like David Levine's post which are still up, and replace it with links to the original. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

=Names and pseudonyms=

I'm really not digging this distinction between the pseudonyms and the driver's license names. Is this necessary, and if so, why?
- vito excalibur
:Yes. Since it is important to know who is speaking, and for half the participants, we don't. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 17:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: This was one the sub-issues raised in the events being documented, and so I personally disagree on the wiki taking a position on it here. --Kate Nepveu

::: There's really no way not to take a position on it: either we separate the names or we don't. -- vito excalibur

:::: I don't see any point in separating people out under different headings. If the person has, themselves, associated their real name with their screen name or pen name, or if it is common public knowledge (as it is for my screen name of badgerbag), list one with the other(s) right next to it and alphabetize under the name you think people are most commonly known by. If there are pages for both identities, link them to each other or make a redirect page. By the way, to make this nifty name/time stamp, click the signature-looking thing in the little toolbar above the edit text input window, and it will magically appear.. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::: Yeah, I put that badly. Let me rephrase: I disagree with Kathryn Cramer that the distinction was necessary or useful. And now I see that it's been changed while I was off. -- Kate Nepveu
::::::I think it sort of speaks for itself anyway.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Which "we" is this? I don't need to know what name corresponds to a pseudonym in order to address that pseudonym's arguments. One of the central arguments in the debate was whether it was appropriate to use pseudonyms; outing someone who has explicitly chosen to be anonymous is cheap, and assumes a premise that was actually being debated. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Seconded. I'm removing the outings. If you need to know who coffeeandink is, you can look at her *years* of public postings. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of why this is necessary, I ask: Is it widely known, for example, that [[coffeeandink]] used to work at Tor, where she reported to [[pnh]]? (I presume it's not, since she doesn't include that job on her LinkedIn page.) People don't just spring into existence when they make up pseudonyms. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
: Pleasantville, if you think it's so important, why don't you just put that on her wiki page? I don't see why that requires people to be divided into separate categories on this page. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::I did already. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not seeing why it's necessary to know that. coffeeandink's many years of posting about race, cultural appropriation, fandom, writing, internet drama, and massive fail stand firmly behind anything she has said in this particular discussion about Patrick, teresa, or anyone else involved. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::: I've just deleted the link to the LinkedIn page in your comment because [[coffeeandink]] does not want her LJ to be Googleable and connected to her full name. I hope we can respect that wish. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think that we can put that bit in about employment, which Pleasantville wants to be clear to outline some of the complexities of people's relationships. But I would like us to respect people's choices about pseudonymity as best we can. The need for anonymity is one of the reasons that women's history is hard to document. Let's do the best we can here. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: I was formulating an argument along these lines in the car on the way home, but you did it better. Thank you. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 02:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have my full name on my LJ because it's unique and I don't want it Google-able. Please remove the redirect and the page account.

I feel my first name is sufficiently unusual that people who are looking for the connection can draw it on their own.(request from coffeeandink 2009-02-06T17:38:53)

: Uh, yeeeahh. Speaking of which, does this Wiki have an outing policy? (Rather, an anti-outing policy?) Because if it doesn't, I foresee difficulties with outreach to media fannish communities. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. We have [[FSFwiki:Privacy]], but perhaps it needs to be more specific. (Philosophically, I don't bother with pushing policy until it's an issue.) Veejane, do you have any examples? Or would you like to edit the [[FSFwiki:Privacy|current privacy policy]]? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Neither of those wikilinks goes anywhere. The policy appears to be [[FSFwiki:Privacy_policy|here]] and about a sentence long. (I also think it should be linked from the Getting Started page, since a privacy policy is baseline information for my attitude towards a site.) You've had one outing, above, and I can still find that outing by comparing the history of edits. So although the identifying data have been deleted from the page, they're still there for anyone to find. Basically, the outing is still occurring even now. By contrast, another wiki I've worked on, [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Fanlore], has a policy that not only requires removal of outing data, but also hides those particular edits from the history, so the data can't be recovered. It might also be worth asking what tools admins have to control malicious outing. Will that fall under a harassment policy? I.... can't find a harassment policy. This all sounds paranoid, I realize. But better to have a policy and not need it than be flailing in the middle of an emergency without one.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Veejane, no need to apologize for pushing for things like an outing policy and a harassment policy; they are things the wiki should probably have. I suspect it just hasn't needed them before now. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is minor, but related to the overall "real name" discussion. Is there a reason why Elizabeth Bear's full name is after her pen name on the page? It's not as if she is known by her full name (she's been going by Elizabeth Bear and eBear since I've known her, lo these 10 years), nor is knowing her full name of use in the conversation. She's not hiding, it's not a "fan name" (not that I think we necessarily need to connect fan names to "real names"), so why is it necessary? --Tempest
: Fair enough, I'ma take it out. Do you think she wouldn't want it up there and it should be a "hide from edit" thing, or just take it out? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
: It looks like she's completely comfortable with it -- I Googled the pair of their names and there's an interview with her whose first paragraph gives her real name. [http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/authors/from_shakespeare_to_ragnarok_elizabeth_bear_keeps_busy_91271.asp] On the other hand, I don't know why the legal name is necessary in the Wiki. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 18:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not saying she'd be uncomfortable with it. It's not as if her real name is a secret, anyway. My larger point was: why was it there? Was it just due to the anti-pseudonym thing? This is one of the problems I have with the anti-pseud thing. Sometimes the real/legal name of a person is not necessary to identify them, what they say around the internet and in real life, etc. To use myself as an example, Tempest is no part of my legal name, and yet almost everyone in the SF/F community knows me by that name. Almost everything I write and do is connected to it. Thus, I'm not hiding, I'm just using a name I chose for myself. It's very much the same for people who go by fan names, I think. Even if your name is not Willow Wren, if that's what everyone knows you as, then it might as well be your real name for the purpose of identifying you and the things you have to say. --Tempest

When someone hides Micole's identity again, I won't correct it. I won't begin a wiki war, and I respect the right of site owners to do what they please. But just for the record: If the point of this wiki is to share information, don't censor the truth. Revise it when you have more information, delete what no longer seems pertinent, sure, but feminists should especially know that double standards stink. -- Will Shetterly, March 2, 2009
: Hi Will. You sure won't start a wiki war here, because I just banned you. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

* Two points. (1) I am not clear on what the double standard that Will is referencing would be. Having a standard that respects privacy, and weighs the costs and benefits of privacy as well as openness of information, does not seem like a "double standard". If, in this discussion, there is someone else who has expressed a desire to not have their pseudonym tied to their real life identity, then we should consider that request just as we have considered coffeeandink's request. To not do so would indeed be a double standard. (And for the record I disagree that double standards in all cases stink. That argument ''might'' be tenable on a so-called level playing field, were such a thing to exist....)

: (2) The addition and subtraction of "the great silliness" is clearly editorial on someone's part. Either it was referred to as "the great silliness" in some significant way, or it wasn't. If it was, then why shouldn't that language be in? If the concern is that all of these terms are implicitly judgmental then the solution is to include a section laying out the terminology & describing the people / positions behind particular terms. Otherwise a footnote (See, e.g., blah blah link blah blah.) should suffice. As it stands we have an assertion by Will that the phrase "the great silliness" was used; I haven't seen any counter-assertion that it was not used. Can someone please confirm or deny the use of this phrase?

: Cheers, Laura Q. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

: I've missed a lot of the RaceFail discussion as well, but a quick Google search seems to indicate that "the Great Silliness" is a term used only by Will Shetterly himself. Could someone who has more contextual knowledge weigh in on this? If this term wasn't actually used more widely, I would like to delete it. --[[User:JLeland|Therem]] 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: I reverted the addition of "the Great Silliness" because it was done in the same batch of edits and by the same person as the attacks on Micole and I saw it as tactic to minimise the subject and therefore a continuance of the attacks.

:: Laura, the supposed "double standard" is deciding whether to link someone's nickname and legal name based on their practice and wishes, rather than naming everyone under the same standard of specious apolitical uniformity (the "level playing field" you mention). See this recent [http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/251935.html?thread=2468127#t2468127 thread] on WS's LiveJournal. --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 12:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
:: He has a fairly long history here which some people may not be aware of:
[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/881075.html Will Shetterly:Do Not Engage] and there is more from [http://deepad.livejournal.com/33512.html deepad] which influenced my snap decision to ban. I think this is the first ban we've had? --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 20:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-03-02T20:29:18Z

Liz Henry:

RaceFail 09

2009-03-02T20:23:51Z

Liz Henry: removing name

'''RaceFail 09''' is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and [[racism]] in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), the Great Silliness, and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ].

:Bear explains her thoughts on writing "The Other", and advises other writer on how to write diverse characters without [[tokenizing]] them. In the comments, many writers agree and thank her for bringing up the subject. Questioning and of Bear's positioning of her white [[privilege]] and her understanding of [[intersectionality]] begins [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30738095#t30738095 in this comments thread] by [[deepad]], [[rydra_wong]], [[shewhohashope]], [[Avalon's Willow]], and others.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html The Magical Other], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

mac_stone's post about child abuse, which gave a checklist of warning signs that a person is abusive, and compared the critiques of mac_stone in LJ comments to emotional abuse patterns, including attributing intentions of meaning to a person that they deny, ie [[false consciousness]]. (pnh may have commented on this post about people not being smart). (screencaps anyone?)

(some other stuff here)

January 19, 2009: [[copracat]], assuming pnh's comment on mac_stone's post was made with [http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/487308.html?thread=2088076#t2088076 knowledge of the context of discussion being held], posted about it [http://copracat.livejournal.com/449470.html in her LJ]. The comments to this post appear to be pnh's only remaining public comments in RaceFail 09.

(including pnh and others commenting on copracat's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI LJ]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html Teresa Nielsen Hayden's original post on LJ]: now [[flock|friends-locked]].</ref>

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

(Include some of the apologies made by Bear, Monette, Shetterly, and others)

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Elizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction & fantasy writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[copracat]] "<ref>[http://copracat.livejournal.com/profile copracat LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* ([[coffeeandink]]) <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[tacky_tramp]] <ref>[http://tacky_tramp.livejournal.com/profile tacky_tramp LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito_excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[troll]] or [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website
* [[pantslessness]] or "not wearing pants" or "showing one's ass"

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]
* [[Harry Potter miscegenation prompt]] - racist fic prompt from a fanfic community

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09| ]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Kay Zeldin

2009-02-10T04:17:07Z

Liz Henry:

Kay Zeldin is a leading character in [[L. Timmel Duchamp]]'s [[Marq'ssan Cycle]]. She is a member of the professional class living in Seattle and working as a college history professor as the series opens. She has or develops close associations with Robert Sedgewick and his personal assistant [[Elizabeth Weatherall]].

** Spoilers ahead **

Through Zeldin's memories and conversations we learn she also worked for the U.S. government as an intelligence agent and torturer. She is imprisoned by Sedgewick, then escapes to the Free Zone, writes a revolutionary book telling the secrets of the ruling executive class, and is imprisoned again by [[Elizabeth Weatherall]]. After her death she becomes an iconic hero of resistance to government.

[[Category:Female characters]]

Kay Zeldin

2009-02-10T04:16:11Z

Liz Henry: seed created

List of women of color in fandom

2009-02-10T04:07:53Z

Liz Henry:

{{WOC}}{{WMSF}}

* [[Velma Bowen]]
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]]
* [[Pat Diggs]]
* [[Nalo Hopkinson]]
* [[Nora Jemisin]]
* [[Mari Kotani]]
* [[Yoon Ha Lee]]
* [[Claire Light]]
* [[Mary Anne Mohanraj]]
* [[Shweta Narayan]]
* [[Pam Noles]]
* [[D. Potter]]
* [[Yvonne Richardson]]
* [[Nisi Shawl]]
* [[Diantha Sprouse]]
* [[J. T. Stewart]]
* [[Kenita Watson]]
* [[sparkymonster]]
* [[oyceter]]
* [[ciderpress]]
* [[deepad]]
* [[vito_excalibur]]

[[Category:Fandom| List of women of color]]
[[Category:Fans| ]]
[[Category:Lists of people|Women of color in fandom]]

List of women of color in fandom

2009-02-10T04:06:51Z

Liz Henry:

{{WOC}}{{WMSF}}

* [[Velma Bowen]]
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]]
* [[Pat Diggs]]
* [[M.J. Hardman]]
* [[Nalo Hopkinson]]
* [[Nora Jemisin]]
* [[Mari Kotani]]
* [[Yoon Ha Lee]]
* [[Claire Light]]
* [[Mary Anne Mohanraj]]
* [[Shweta Narayan]]
* [[Pam Noles]]
* [[D. Potter]]
* [[Yvonne Richardson]]
* [[Nisi Shawl]]
* [[Diantha Sprouse]]
* [[J. T. Stewart]]
* [[Kenita Watson]]
* [[sparkymonster]]
* [[oyceter]]
* [[ciderpress]]
* [[deepad]]
* [[vito_excalibur]]

[[Category:Fandom| List of women of color]]
[[Category:Fans| ]]
[[Category:Lists of people|Women of color in fandom]]