Feminist SF Wiki - User contributions [en]

Category talk:Wiscon Guest of Honor

2009-03-08T20:40:31Z

Vito excalibur: Removing all content from page

User talk:Vito excalibur

2009-03-04T14:11:59Z

Vito excalibur:

what was all this anon ip vandalism of tempest, relating to luke bradford etc? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 14:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
:Hmm? What I noticed was on Feb 23rd I see from the Recent Changes page, someone at 69.198.91.53 changed Tempest's page to call her mediocre & also changed darkerblogistan's & Luke Jackson's (is that who you meant?) page to call him a genius, so I figured it was him. Was there more than that? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 14:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Designated Sidekick

2009-02-25T10:59:47Z

Vito excalibur:

[http://www.girl-wonder.org/designatedsidekick/ Feminist comics blog].

Luke Jackson

2009-02-25T10:38:08Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Luke Jackson''' is a Los Angeles attorney, sometime writer, and online troll.

Notable events:

Kicked off the [[Helix magazine incident]] by posting text from a rejection letter he was sent<ref>[http://tempest.fluidartist.com/2008/07/07/william-sanders-senior-bigot-helix/ Tempest's post on the ''Helix'' incident]</ref> by ''Helix'' senior editor [[William Sanders]].

During [[RaceFail 09]], trolled under the names darkerblogistan<ref>http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/</ref> and igorsanchez<ref>http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/</ref>. After [[Kynn]] connected the name igorsanchez to the name Luke Jackson<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/how-sexual-harassment-lawyers-spend-their-free-time/ Kynn's post on the identity of igorsanchez]</ref>, attempted to post [[Kynn]]'s contact information to the internet, but failed to successfully locate it<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/its-like-internet-troll-limbo-or-something/ Kynn's post on the unsuccessful outing]</ref>.

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

Darkerblogistan

2009-02-25T10:37:46Z

Vito excalibur: Redirecting to Luke Jackson

#REDIRECT [[Luke Jackson]]

Igorsanchez

2009-02-25T10:37:15Z

Vito excalibur: Redirecting to Luke Jackson

#REDIRECT [[Luke Jackson]]

Luke Jackson

2009-02-25T10:35:44Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Luke Jackson''' is a Los Angeles attorney, sometime writer, and online troll.

Notable events:

Kicked off the [[Helix magazine incident]] by posting text from a rejection letter he was sent<ref>[http://tempest.fluidartist.com/2008/07/07/william-sanders-senior-bigot-helix/ Tempest's post on the ''Helix'' incident]</ref> by ''Helix'' senior editor [[William Sanders]].

During [[RaceFail 09]], trolled under the names darkerblogistan<ref>http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/</ref> and igorsanchez<ref>http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/</ref>. After [[Kynn]] connected the name igorsanchez to the name Luke Jackson<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/how-sexual-harassment-lawyers-spend-their-free-time/ Kynn's post on the identity of igorsanchez]</ref>, attempted to post Kynn's contact information to the internet, but failed to successfully locate it<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/its-like-internet-troll-limbo-or-something/ Kynn's post on the unsuccessful outing]</ref>.

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

Luke Jackson

2009-02-25T10:34:43Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Luke Jackson''' is a Los Angeles attorney, sometime writer, and online troll.

Notable events:

Kicked off the [[Helix magazine incident]] by posting text from a rejection letter he was sent<ref>[http://tempest.fluidartist.com/2008/07/07/william-sanders-senior-bigot-helix/ Tempest's post on the ''Helix'' incident]</ref> by ''Helix'' senior editor [[William Sanders]].

During [[RaceFail '09]], trolled under the names darkerblogistan<ref>http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/</ref> and igorsanchez<ref>http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/</ref>. After [[Kynn]] connected the name igorsanchez to the name Luke Jackson<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/how-sexual-harassment-lawyers-spend-their-free-time/ Kynn's post on the identity of igorsanchez]</ref>, attempted to post Kynn's contact information to the internet, but failed to successfully locate it<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/30/its-like-internet-troll-limbo-or-something/ Kynn's post on the unsuccessful outing]</ref>.

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

K. Tempest Bradford

2009-02-25T10:00:18Z

Vito excalibur: Undo revision 32352 by 69.198.91.53 (Talk)

{{WOC}}

'''K. Tempest Bradford''', also known as just Tempest, is an African-American speculative fiction writer born in Cincinnati, Ohio, currently residing in New York, NY. She attended New York University’s Gallatin School for Individualized Study where she had the opportunity to write and produce several plays and performance pieces (under the name K. T. Bradford) in Off-Broadway and Off-Off-Broadway spaces.

Since 2000 she’s concentrated on fiction and in 2003 she attended the [[Clarion West]] Writers Workshop. Prior to that was a member of the [[OWW]] (SF&F Online Writing Workshop) for many years. She's currently a member of the [[Altered Fluid]] and [[Black Beans]] writing groups and co-coordinates the Ohayo Mountain Retreat in New York State.

Bradford is the main writer behind the [[Angry Black Woman blog]].

== Works ==

*"[http://strangehorizons.com/2008/20081117/forgiveness-f.shtml Until Forgiveness Comes]" in [[Strange Horizons]], 2008
*"Black Feather" in Interfictions, 2007.
*"The Seventh Reflection" in Thou Shalt Not... a horror and dark fantasy anthology, 2006.
*"Change of Life" in [[Farthing]], 2006.
*"Hard Rain" in [[Farthing]], 2006.
*"Why I Don't Drink Anymore" (as Finley Larkin) in Abyss & Apex, 2003.
*"Elf Aware" (as Finley Larkin) in Cafe Irreal, 2002.
*"What We Make Of It" (as K T Bradford) in Peridot Books, 2000.

== Editorial Positions ==

*Managing Editor, [[Fantasy Magazine]] (current)
*Assistant Editor, Sybil's Garage #5
*Editor, ForteanBureau.com, 2001 - 2006
*Associate Editor, PeridotBooks.com, 2000 - 2006

== Affiliations ==
*[[The Carl Brandon Society]]
*[[The Interstitial Arts Foundation]]

== Projects ==

*[http://sfbookswap.wordpress.com/ SFBookswap]
*[http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/ The Angry Black Woman]

== External Sources ==
*http://tempest.fluidartist.com/
*http://ktempest.livejournal.com/
*http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/

[[Category:Bloggers]]
[[Category:Writers]]
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:FSFwikians]]
[[Category:1978 births]]
{{DEFAULTSORT:Bradford, K. Tempest}}

My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio

2009-02-07T18:27:32Z

Vito excalibur: /* Responses in Other Blogs */

==Original Post==

<blockquote>There has been a major Internet kerfuffle going on in the last couple of weeks over the question of cultural appropriation and racism in SF and Fantasy. Many friends of mine on both sides of the debate (and, yes, there are clearly two sides to this debate, despite the complexity of the underlying topic) have been badly hurt. I have been sitting on my hands because it appears that there is no way to enter the slapfight without getting slapped, but I am tired unto death of the ongoing vitriol and character assassination, so I am going to make one statement. Comments are disabled, and I will not respond to comments elsewhere about this post. '''([http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html Read more...])'''</blockquote>

Author and zine Editor [[David Levine]] posted [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html this] to [[LiveJournal]] on January 26, 2009. The comments were disabled.

==Responses in Other Blogs==
* [[kynn]]: [http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/27/lots-of-white-male-authors-are-huge-wankers/ Lots of white male authors are huge wankers]
* [[Nick Mamatas]]: [http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1256858.html MY GOD, WHAT HAVE THE NEGROES DONE!]
* [[coffeeandink]]: [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/888881.html How Not to Engage in Discussions of Cultural Appropriation]
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]]: [http://ktempest.livejournal.com/365999.html Talking About (And To) David Levine]
* [[karnythia]]: [http://karnythia.livejournal.com/1191116.html Big boy pants...get you some...]
* [[kynn]]: [http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/28/something-defensive-white-authors-are-missing/ Something defensive white authors are missing]
* [http://abydosangel.livejournal.com abydosangel]: [http://abydosangel.livejournal.com/468124.html Dear Pained White Author]
* [[badgerbag]]: [http://badgerbag.livejournal.com/220874.html People taking the trouble to explain]
* [http://tacky-tramp.livejournal.com/ tacky_tramp]: [http://tacky-tramp.livejournal.com/159291.html Oh David Levine No]
* [http://vito_excalibur.livejournal.com/ vito_excalibur]: [http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/208031.html my last public post on the Late Great Unpleasantness]

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[category:2009 publications]]

RaceFail 09

2009-02-07T18:19:09Z

Vito excalibur: /* Dramatis personae */

'''RaceFail 09''' is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[The Magical Other]], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on copracat's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI LJ]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html Teresa Nielsen Hayden's original post on LJ]: now [[flock|friends-locked]].</ref>

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Elizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction & fantasy writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[tacky_tramp]] <ref>[http://tacky_tramp.livejournal.com/profile tacky_tramp LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito_excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09| ]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio

2009-02-07T18:17:20Z

Vito excalibur: /* Responses in Other Blogs */

==Original Post==

<blockquote>There has been a major Internet kerfuffle going on in the last couple of weeks over the question of cultural appropriation and racism in SF and Fantasy. Many friends of mine on both sides of the debate (and, yes, there are clearly two sides to this debate, despite the complexity of the underlying topic) have been badly hurt. I have been sitting on my hands because it appears that there is no way to enter the slapfight without getting slapped, but I am tired unto death of the ongoing vitriol and character assassination, so I am going to make one statement. Comments are disabled, and I will not respond to comments elsewhere about this post. '''([http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html Read more...])'''</blockquote>

Author and zine Editor [[David Levine]] posted [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html this] to [[LiveJournal]] on January 26, 2009. The comments were disabled.

==Responses in Other Blogs==
* [[Nick Mamatas]]: [http://nihilistic-kid.livejournal.com/1256858.html MY GOD, WHAT HAVE THE NEGROES DONE!]
* [[coffeeandink]]: [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/888881.html How Not to Engage in Discussions of Cultural Appropriation]
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]]: [http://ktempest.livejournal.com/365999.html Talking About (And To) David Levine]
* [http://tacky-tramp.livejournal.com/ tacky_tramp]: [http://tacky-tramp.livejournal.com/159291.html Oh David Levine No]
* [http://vito_excalibur.livejournal.com/ vito_excalibur]: [http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/208031.html my last public post on the Late Great Unpleasantness]

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[category:2009 publications]]

My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio

2009-02-07T18:15:58Z

Vito excalibur:

My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio

2009-02-07T18:10:23Z

Vito excalibur:

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-07T18:05:55Z

Vito excalibur: /* Internal Links for Blog Post Titles */

=Internal Links for Blog Post Titles=

I thought it would be a good idea for each of the major blog posts (particularly those that have disappeared from the public Internet) to have its own page where we can call out highlights, important threads, and individual comments that sparked other discussions/posts, etc. That will keep the main timeline page pretty clear and straightforward. -KTempest

:It's a good idea, though copyright restrictions may apply. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] aka [[Kathryn Cramer]]16:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: I think it is fair use, as these posts have been quoted and responded to and are part of public discourse. I'm not the expert on that though. 8-) --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::The general rule of thumb for fair use is quoting 150 words. On my blog, I don't sweat this and on rare occasions when it becomes an issue I either remove the content, pay a fee for use, or both, but Wikis can exist only because of the willingness to put things under a free license (in this case GNU Free Documentation License 1.2), so in general one should adhere to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use guidelines]. ([http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml LJ's ToS] state the material is copyright by its author, which is as I expected.)--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't say that rule of thumb is appropriate here (and I'd be curious of the context from which it is drawn: I'm guessing the publishing industry. "Best practices" frequently become far more normative than they were originally intended to be when it comes to fair use, and don't translate well to other contexts.). Fair use is a defence, not a hard and fast rule, and while this isn't legal advice, I'd suggest that Pleasantville's approach on her own blog is the best: don't sweat it. If someone is upset at being quoted, there are plenty of forms of conciliation that can be used before IP law needs to be invoked. Calling out (linking to) content would be almost certainly fine, copying-and-pasting beyond what's necessary for review and analysis will gradually shade into other issues. Our stuff on Chilling Effects on the [[http://www.chillingeffects.org/fairuse/faq.cgi Fair Use factors]] may be of use. --[[User:Mala|Mala]] 23:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Copyright attorney / co-admin of the FSFwiki weighing in: 150 is a rule of thumb adopted by some people / organizations, but it is just that -- a voluntary rule of thumb. It in no way reflects the state of the law, which is probably better termed, "as much as needed for a legitimate purpose." Documenting an event and the views, and important language that comes up, is unquestionably important; and so long as individual passages are not unnecessarily included (for instance, to try to or with the effect of supplanting the original) then I think we're okay. In short, it is a fact-specific analysis, and thus we can make our own assessment on a case-by-case basis. No rules of thumb apply. I feel very strongly about this. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::I envisioned that whole posts would be pasted in when they were no longer available at their original location but were, at one point, public. Like Teresa's post. Otherwise, readers can click to the original to read the whole thing but stay on the page to see important highlights and get the gist of the discussion. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)\
::::: That works for me. I'm going to take out the full text of things like David Levine's post which are still up, and replace it with links to the original. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 18:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

=Names and pseudonyms=

I'm really not digging this distinction between the pseudonyms and the driver's license names. Is this necessary, and if so, why?
- vito excalibur
:Yes. Since it is important to know who is speaking, and for half the participants, we don't. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 17:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: This was one the sub-issues raised in the events being documented, and so I personally disagree on the wiki taking a position on it here. --Kate Nepveu

::: There's really no way not to take a position on it: either we separate the names or we don't. -- vito excalibur

:::: I don't see any point in separating people out under different headings. If the person has, themselves, associated their real name with their screen name or pen name, or if it is common public knowledge (as it is for my screen name of badgerbag), list one with the other(s) right next to it and alphabetize under the name you think people are most commonly known by. If there are pages for both identities, link them to each other or make a redirect page. By the way, to make this nifty name/time stamp, click the signature-looking thing in the little toolbar above the edit text input window, and it will magically appear.. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::: Yeah, I put that badly. Let me rephrase: I disagree with Kathryn Cramer that the distinction was necessary or useful. And now I see that it's been changed while I was off. -- Kate Nepveu
::::::I think it sort of speaks for itself anyway.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Which "we" is this? I don't need to know what name corresponds to a pseudonym in order to address that pseudonym's arguments. One of the central arguments in the debate was whether it was appropriate to use pseudonyms; outing someone who has explicitly chosen to be anonymous is cheap, and assumes a premise that was actually being debated. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Seconded. I'm removing the outings. If you need to know who coffeeandink is, you can look at her *years* of public postings. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of why this is necessary, I ask: Is it widely known, for example, that [[coffeeandink]] used to work at Tor, where she reported to [[pnh]]? (I presume it's not, since she doesn't include that job on her LinkedIn page.) People don't just spring into existence when they make up pseudonyms. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
: Pleasantville, if you think it's so important, why don't you just put that on her wiki page? I don't see why that requires people to be divided into separate categories on this page. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::I did already. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not seeing why it's necessary to know that. coffeeandink's many years of posting about race, cultural appropriation, fandom, writing, internet drama, and massive fail stand firmly behind anything she has said in this particular discussion about Patrick, teresa, or anyone else involved. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::: I've just deleted the link to the LinkedIn page in your comment because [[coffeeandink]] does not want her LJ to be Googleable and connected to her full name. I hope we can respect that wish. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think that we can put that bit in about employment, which Pleasantville wants to be clear to outline some of the complexities of people's relationships. But I would like us to respect people's choices about pseudonymity as best we can. The need for anonymity is one of the reasons that women's history is hard to document. Let's do the best we can here. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: I was formulating an argument along these lines in the car on the way home, but you did it better. Thank you. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 02:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have my full name on my LJ because it's unique and I don't want it Google-able. Please remove the redirect and the page account.

I feel my first name is sufficiently unusual that people who are looking for the connection can draw it on their own.(request from coffeeandink 2009-02-06T17:38:53)

: Uh, yeeeahh. Speaking of which, does this Wiki have an outing policy? (Rather, an anti-outing policy?) Because if it doesn't, I foresee difficulties with outreach to media fannish communities. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. We have [[FSFwiki:Privacy]], but perhaps it needs to be more specific. (Philosophically, I don't bother with pushing policy until it's an issue.) Veejane, do you have any examples? Or would you like to edit the [[FSFwiki:Privacy|current privacy policy]]? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Neither of those wikilinks goes anywhere. The policy appears to be [[FSFwiki:Privacy_policy|here]] and about a sentence long. (I also think it should be linked from the Getting Started page, since a privacy policy is baseline information for my attitude towards a site.) You've had one outing, above, and I can still find that outing by comparing the history of edits. So although the identifying data have been deleted from the page, they're still there for anyone to find. Basically, the outing is still occurring even now. By contrast, another wiki I've worked on, [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Fanlore], has a policy that not only requires removal of outing data, but also hides those particular edits from the history, so the data can't be recovered. It might also be worth asking what tools admins have to control malicious outing. Will that fall under a harassment policy? I.... can't find a harassment policy. This all sounds paranoid, I realize. But better to have a policy and not need it than be flailing in the middle of an emergency without one.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Veejane, no need to apologize for pushing for things like an outing policy and a harassment policy; they are things the wiki should probably have. I suspect it just hasn't needed them before now. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is minor, but related to the overall "real name" discussion. Is there a reason why Elizabeth Bear's full name is after her pen name on the page? It's not as if she is known by her full name (she's been going by Elizabeth Bear and eBear since I've known her, lo these 10 years), nor is knowing her full name of use in the conversation. She's not hiding, it's not a "fan name" (not that I think we necessarily need to connect fan names to "real names"), so why is it necessary? --Tempest
: Fair enough, I'ma take it out. Do you think she wouldn't want it up there and it should be a "hide from edit" thing, or just take it out? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.

2009-02-07T18:01:21Z

Vito excalibur: /* Responses In Other Blogs */

Author, Blogger and Freelance Editor [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] wrote the following post on LiveJournal on January 26, 2009. It has subsequently been friends-locked.

==Original Post==
There's been a big LJ thrash recently, one of those maelstroms of online stupidity that take on a life of their own. All kinds of good people got trashed, starting with Elizabeth Bear. Patrick got involved when he posted some consoling remarks to Lisa Spangenberg. In the course of those remarks, he observed that (1.) some people are stupid; and (2.) some people don't argue as well as others. The mob took this personally, and lit into him.

What would you expect from a group that's self-selected for agreement with the statement, "I'm stupid, and I don't argue well"? Things got extremely ugly.

I wonder whether any of those draggletailed loudmouths have noticed that Patrick has now deleted his entire Live Journal, all the way back to the beginning. I doubt they have. They don't strike me as the sort to go back and see the damage they've done. Patrick has as usual taken them seriously; whereas they, knowing themselves better than he does, will have known they weren't worth listening to, and assumed they'd had no effect.

I tender them my congratulations. Whatever good there was in Patrick's LJ is gone now. Those members of the mob who actually wanted someone to listen to them now have one less person to do it. The junior literary critics and wanna-be writers have lost one of the central editors in science fiction from their conversation. And if any of that lot professes to care about Patrick personally -- please understand I'm not rating that probability very high at the moment -- it should be obvious to them what kind of effect they've had.

I know Patrick better than anyone else. This is serious damage. The nithings who've hurt him will have moved on to some other inane topic by now. There's nothing worthwhile I can do to them. It wouldn't take away his hurt -- and besides, they wouldn't understand most of what I had to say to them.

One other issue: when Patrick and I first registered our Live Journal accounts, it never occurred to us to use anything other than our real names -- or rather, our real initials, which are easily traced to us, and which we've used as userIDs in other forums where our identities are or were known. Has it not occurred to the people attacking him that they can say anything, whereas what they say about him will show up whenever someone Googles his name? In terms of public reputation, they're playing with Monopoly money, and he's playing with the real thing.

Some of the people who are using false names are known to him. Some of them are known to or evident to me. In those cases, I've told Patrick who they really are. It's only fair. Just on the other side of the boundary for people whose identities he can figure out are people whom he can almost figure out: this one is a VP student. This one is someone he knows at conventions. This one is a reviewer he's had dealings with. And so forth.

Do any of those safely pseudonymous assholes ever stop to reflect that if he can tell they're a former VP student, but not which one, all former VP students become "people who may be traducing me on LJ at this very moment"? The same thing goes for people he knows from conventions, or wanna-be writers who might submit something to him. Entire classes of people become potential attackers. That's why I identify everyone I can: it exculpates everyone else in that class.

Those of you I can't identify are not off the hook. I suggest that you never seek to take credit under your real name for anything you've done or written under your LJ pseudonym, because it's unlikely that I will ever forget you or what you've done.

Okay, one more last thing: Patrick, being a better person than I am, is a complete sucker for people who say they're sorry. I should hope I know you lot better than that. Still, he sets a lot of store by repentance, and I can't badmouth it too much, because there've been plenty of times when he's forgiven me, too. I know this sounds weird, but I'm mostly telling you about it because I have faith that almost everyone to whom it potentially applies will not be listening.

And so to bed. May we all be better people in the morning

'''Addendum:'''

I moderate as I always have.

'''Further addendum:'''

Apparently some people are taking my remarks as a threat that I will Retaliate Against Them Professionally. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that [several adjectives deleted] interpretation; but since Kate Nepveu assures me that people are taking it that way, I must needs believe it.

So: no, it wasn't a threat. Anyone who insists that it was is just putting on airs to be interesting.

===Screen Captures and Archives of the Post and Comments===

[http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI Original post, without addenda, and first page of comments.]

==Notable Threads In The Post==

===Selective Deletion of Comments===

==Responses In Other Blogs==

* [http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/ spiralsheep]: [http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/276263.html In which Teresa Nielsen Hayden joins her husband in a pantsless state]
* [http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/ spiralsheep]: [http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/276691.html In which there are the comments deleted by Teresa Neilsen Hayden], including responding comments by [http://annafdd.livejournal.com/ annafdd], [http://troubleinchina.livejournal.com/ troubleinchina], and [http://jophan.livejournal.com/ jophan].
* [http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/ zvi_likes_tv]: [http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/484994.html Intentionality, Context, Apologies]: an analysis of and response to a comment by [http://nellorat.livejournal.com/ nellorat] in the original post's comment threads.
* [http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/ zvi_likes_tv]: [http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/485236.html Some additional comments from tnh's post]: an analysis of and response to comments by [http://nellorat.livejournal.com/ nellorat] and [http://womzilla.livejournal.com/ womzilla] in the original post's comment threads.
* [http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/ zvi_likes_tv]: [http://zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com/485698.html Last comment in TNH for a while]: a response to a comment by [http://nellorat.livejournal.com/ nellorat] in the original post's comment threads.

==Follow Up Post==

[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post], [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden|TNH]] on [[LiveJournal|LJ]], 1/27/09.

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[category:2009 publications]]

I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.

2009-02-07T17:44:39Z

Vito excalibur: /* Follow Up Post */

Author, Blogger and Freelance Editor [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] wrote the following post on LiveJournal on January 26, 2009. It has subsequently been friends-locked.

==Original Post==
There's been a big LJ thrash recently, one of those maelstroms of online stupidity that take on a life of their own. All kinds of good people got trashed, starting with Elizabeth Bear. Patrick got involved when he posted some consoling remarks to Lisa Spangenberg. In the course of those remarks, he observed that (1.) some people are stupid; and (2.) some people don't argue as well as others. The mob took this personally, and lit into him.

What would you expect from a group that's self-selected for agreement with the statement, "I'm stupid, and I don't argue well"? Things got extremely ugly.

I wonder whether any of those draggletailed loudmouths have noticed that Patrick has now deleted his entire Live Journal, all the way back to the beginning. I doubt they have. They don't strike me as the sort to go back and see the damage they've done. Patrick has as usual taken them seriously; whereas they, knowing themselves better than he does, will have known they weren't worth listening to, and assumed they'd had no effect.

I tender them my congratulations. Whatever good there was in Patrick's LJ is gone now. Those members of the mob who actually wanted someone to listen to them now have one less person to do it. The junior literary critics and wanna-be writers have lost one of the central editors in science fiction from their conversation. And if any of that lot professes to care about Patrick personally -- please understand I'm not rating that probability very high at the moment -- it should be obvious to them what kind of effect they've had.

I know Patrick better than anyone else. This is serious damage. The nithings who've hurt him will have moved on to some other inane topic by now. There's nothing worthwhile I can do to them. It wouldn't take away his hurt -- and besides, they wouldn't understand most of what I had to say to them.

One other issue: when Patrick and I first registered our Live Journal accounts, it never occurred to us to use anything other than our real names -- or rather, our real initials, which are easily traced to us, and which we've used as userIDs in other forums where our identities are or were known. Has it not occurred to the people attacking him that they can say anything, whereas what they say about him will show up whenever someone Googles his name? In terms of public reputation, they're playing with Monopoly money, and he's playing with the real thing.

Some of the people who are using false names are known to him. Some of them are known to or evident to me. In those cases, I've told Patrick who they really are. It's only fair. Just on the other side of the boundary for people whose identities he can figure out are people whom he can almost figure out: this one is a VP student. This one is someone he knows at conventions. This one is a reviewer he's had dealings with. And so forth.

Do any of those safely pseudonymous assholes ever stop to reflect that if he can tell they're a former VP student, but not which one, all former VP students become "people who may be traducing me on LJ at this very moment"? The same thing goes for people he knows from conventions, or wanna-be writers who might submit something to him. Entire classes of people become potential attackers. That's why I identify everyone I can: it exculpates everyone else in that class.

Those of you I can't identify are not off the hook. I suggest that you never seek to take credit under your real name for anything you've done or written under your LJ pseudonym, because it's unlikely that I will ever forget you or what you've done.

Okay, one more last thing: Patrick, being a better person than I am, is a complete sucker for people who say they're sorry. I should hope I know you lot better than that. Still, he sets a lot of store by repentance, and I can't badmouth it too much, because there've been plenty of times when he's forgiven me, too. I know this sounds weird, but I'm mostly telling you about it because I have faith that almost everyone to whom it potentially applies will not be listening.

And so to bed. May we all be better people in the morning

'''Addendum:'''

I moderate as I always have.

'''Further addendum:'''

Apparently some people are taking my remarks as a threat that I will Retaliate Against Them Professionally. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that [several adjectives deleted] interpretation; but since Kate Nepveu assures me that people are taking it that way, I must needs believe it.

So: no, it wasn't a threat. Anyone who insists that it was is just putting on airs to be interesting.

===Screen Captures and Archives of the Post and Comments===

[http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI Original post, without addenda, and first page of comments.]

==Notable Threads In The Post==

===Selective Deletion of Comments===

==Responses In Other Blogs==

==Follow Up Post==

[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post], [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden|TNH]] on [[LiveJournal|LJ]], 1/27/09.

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[category:2009 publications]]

I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.

2009-02-07T17:41:50Z

Vito excalibur: /* Screen Captures and Archives of the Post and Comments */

Author, Blogger and Freelance Editor [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] wrote the following post on LiveJournal on January 26, 2009. It has subsequently been friends-locked.

==Original Post==
There's been a big LJ thrash recently, one of those maelstroms of online stupidity that take on a life of their own. All kinds of good people got trashed, starting with Elizabeth Bear. Patrick got involved when he posted some consoling remarks to Lisa Spangenberg. In the course of those remarks, he observed that (1.) some people are stupid; and (2.) some people don't argue as well as others. The mob took this personally, and lit into him.

What would you expect from a group that's self-selected for agreement with the statement, "I'm stupid, and I don't argue well"? Things got extremely ugly.

I wonder whether any of those draggletailed loudmouths have noticed that Patrick has now deleted his entire Live Journal, all the way back to the beginning. I doubt they have. They don't strike me as the sort to go back and see the damage they've done. Patrick has as usual taken them seriously; whereas they, knowing themselves better than he does, will have known they weren't worth listening to, and assumed they'd had no effect.

I tender them my congratulations. Whatever good there was in Patrick's LJ is gone now. Those members of the mob who actually wanted someone to listen to them now have one less person to do it. The junior literary critics and wanna-be writers have lost one of the central editors in science fiction from their conversation. And if any of that lot professes to care about Patrick personally -- please understand I'm not rating that probability very high at the moment -- it should be obvious to them what kind of effect they've had.

I know Patrick better than anyone else. This is serious damage. The nithings who've hurt him will have moved on to some other inane topic by now. There's nothing worthwhile I can do to them. It wouldn't take away his hurt -- and besides, they wouldn't understand most of what I had to say to them.

One other issue: when Patrick and I first registered our Live Journal accounts, it never occurred to us to use anything other than our real names -- or rather, our real initials, which are easily traced to us, and which we've used as userIDs in other forums where our identities are or were known. Has it not occurred to the people attacking him that they can say anything, whereas what they say about him will show up whenever someone Googles his name? In terms of public reputation, they're playing with Monopoly money, and he's playing with the real thing.

Some of the people who are using false names are known to him. Some of them are known to or evident to me. In those cases, I've told Patrick who they really are. It's only fair. Just on the other side of the boundary for people whose identities he can figure out are people whom he can almost figure out: this one is a VP student. This one is someone he knows at conventions. This one is a reviewer he's had dealings with. And so forth.

Do any of those safely pseudonymous assholes ever stop to reflect that if he can tell they're a former VP student, but not which one, all former VP students become "people who may be traducing me on LJ at this very moment"? The same thing goes for people he knows from conventions, or wanna-be writers who might submit something to him. Entire classes of people become potential attackers. That's why I identify everyone I can: it exculpates everyone else in that class.

Those of you I can't identify are not off the hook. I suggest that you never seek to take credit under your real name for anything you've done or written under your LJ pseudonym, because it's unlikely that I will ever forget you or what you've done.

Okay, one more last thing: Patrick, being a better person than I am, is a complete sucker for people who say they're sorry. I should hope I know you lot better than that. Still, he sets a lot of store by repentance, and I can't badmouth it too much, because there've been plenty of times when he's forgiven me, too. I know this sounds weird, but I'm mostly telling you about it because I have faith that almost everyone to whom it potentially applies will not be listening.

And so to bed. May we all be better people in the morning

'''Addendum:'''

I moderate as I always have.

'''Further addendum:'''

Apparently some people are taking my remarks as a threat that I will Retaliate Against Them Professionally. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around that [several adjectives deleted] interpretation; but since Kate Nepveu assures me that people are taking it that way, I must needs believe it.

So: no, it wasn't a threat. Anyone who insists that it was is just putting on airs to be interesting.

===Screen Captures and Archives of the Post and Comments===

[http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI Original post, without addenda, and first page of comments.]

==Notable Threads In The Post==

===Selective Deletion of Comments===

==Responses In Other Blogs==

==Follow Up Post==

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[category:2009 publications]]

RaceFail 09

2009-02-07T17:40:12Z

Vito excalibur: /* Timeline */

'''RaceFail 09''' is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[The Magical Other]], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on copracat's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://www.freezepage.com/1232982493SXILEBRINI LJ]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html Teresa Nielsen Hayden's original post on LJ]: now [[flock|friends-locked]].</ref>

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Elizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction & fantasy writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09| ]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Dumb Martian

2009-02-07T17:31:00Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Dumb Martian''' ([[1952]])<ref>http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/w/john-wyndham</ref>. is a short story by [[John Wyndham]], noteworthy for the relationship between its male and female characters.

Duncan, an Earth man, buys Lellie, a young [[Mars|Martian]] woman, from her family as a companion for his five-year job on a small uninhabited moon of [[Jupiter]]. Anti-slavery laws oblige him to marry her to get her a passport. Martians are a [[race]] of humans with an extinct civilization. They are illiterate, have big eyes and only speak a little, so they appear to have a dumb look of surprise.

Duncan behaves rudely and [[violence|violently]] to Lellie; he asks her to paint her face and do her hair to look like Earth women, and orders her to "look like a 'real woman."

A pedologist<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedology_(soil_study) Pedology on wikipedia]</ref> comes to the planet for a one-year mission. He treats Lellie well and teaches her how to read. This makes Duncan angry, especially when Lellie asks about the "[[Women's movement|Women's Freedom Movement]]" that they had on Earth, while reading a book. Duncan grows to hate the new man and finally kills him.

At the end of the five-year mission, the Martian woman demonstrates that, despite her reputation, she was not the dumb one: she kills Duncan and frees herself.

== References ==
<references />

[[Category:short stories]]
[[Category:1952 publications]]

RaceFail 09

2009-02-07T17:13:38Z

Vito excalibur: /* Dramatis personae */

'''RaceFail 09''' is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[The Magical Other]], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on copracat's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Elizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction & fantasy writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09| ]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-07T17:12:45Z

Vito excalibur: /* Names and pseudonyms */

=Internal Links for Blog Post Titles=

I thought it would be a good idea for each of the major blog posts (particularly those that have disappeared from the public Internet) to have its own page where we can call out highlights, important threads, and individual comments that sparked other discussions/posts, etc. That will keep the main timeline page pretty clear and straightforward. -KTempest

:It's a good idea, though copyright restrictions may apply. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] aka [[Kathryn Cramer]]16:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: I think it is fair use, as these posts have been quoted and responded to and are part of public discourse. I'm not the expert on that though. 8-) --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::The general rule of thumb for fair use is quoting 150 words. On my blog, I don't sweat this and on rare occasions when it becomes an issue I either remove the content, pay a fee for use, or both, but Wikis can exist only because of the willingness to put things under a free license (in this case GNU Free Documentation License 1.2), so in general one should adhere to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use fair use guidelines]. ([http://www.livejournal.com/legal/tos.bml LJ's ToS] state the material is copyright by its author, which is as I expected.)--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:19, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:::I wouldn't say that rule of thumb is appropriate here (and I'd be curious of the context from which it is drawn: I'm guessing the publishing industry. "Best practices" frequently become far more normative than they were originally intended to be when it comes to fair use, and don't translate well to other contexts.). Fair use is a defence, not a hard and fast rule, and while this isn't legal advice, I'd suggest that Pleasantville's approach on her own blog is the best: don't sweat it. If someone is upset at being quoted, there are plenty of forms of conciliation that can be used before IP law needs to be invoked. Calling out (linking to) content would be almost certainly fine, copying-and-pasting beyond what's necessary for review and analysis will gradually shade into other issues. Our stuff on Chilling Effects on the [[http://www.chillingeffects.org/fairuse/faq.cgi Fair Use factors]] may be of use. --[[User:Mala|Mala]] 23:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Copyright attorney / co-admin of the FSFwiki weighing in: 150 is a rule of thumb adopted by some people / organizations, but it is just that -- a voluntary rule of thumb. It in no way reflects the state of the law, which is probably better termed, "as much as needed for a legitimate purpose." Documenting an event and the views, and important language that comes up, is unquestionably important; and so long as individual passages are not unnecessarily included (for instance, to try to or with the effect of supplanting the original) then I think we're okay. In short, it is a fact-specific analysis, and thus we can make our own assessment on a case-by-case basis. No rules of thumb apply. I feel very strongly about this. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 23:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::I envisioned that whole posts would be pasted in when they were no longer available at their original location but were, at one point, public. Like Teresa's post. Otherwise, readers can click to the original to read the whole thing but stay on the page to see important highlights and get the gist of the discussion. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

=Names and pseudonyms=

I'm really not digging this distinction between the pseudonyms and the driver's license names. Is this necessary, and if so, why?
- vito excalibur
:Yes. Since it is important to know who is speaking, and for half the participants, we don't. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 17:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

:: This was one the sub-issues raised in the events being documented, and so I personally disagree on the wiki taking a position on it here. --Kate Nepveu

::: There's really no way not to take a position on it: either we separate the names or we don't. -- vito excalibur

:::: I don't see any point in separating people out under different headings. If the person has, themselves, associated their real name with their screen name or pen name, or if it is common public knowledge (as it is for my screen name of badgerbag), list one with the other(s) right next to it and alphabetize under the name you think people are most commonly known by. If there are pages for both identities, link them to each other or make a redirect page. By the way, to make this nifty name/time stamp, click the signature-looking thing in the little toolbar above the edit text input window, and it will magically appear.. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 17:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

::::: Yeah, I put that badly. Let me rephrase: I disagree with Kathryn Cramer that the distinction was necessary or useful. And now I see that it's been changed while I was off. -- Kate Nepveu
::::::I think it sort of speaks for itself anyway.--[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 18:37, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Which "we" is this? I don't need to know what name corresponds to a pseudonym in order to address that pseudonym's arguments. One of the central arguments in the debate was whether it was appropriate to use pseudonyms; outing someone who has explicitly chosen to be anonymous is cheap, and assumes a premise that was actually being debated. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 22:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: Seconded. I'm removing the outings. If you need to know who coffeeandink is, you can look at her *years* of public postings. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of why this is necessary, I ask: Is it widely known, for example, that [[coffeeandink]] used to work at Tor, where she reported to [[pnh]]? (I presume it's not, since she doesn't include that job on her LinkedIn page.) People don't just spring into existence when they make up pseudonyms. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 19:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
: Pleasantville, if you think it's so important, why don't you just put that on her wiki page? I don't see why that requires people to be divided into separate categories on this page. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::I did already. --[[User:Pleasantville|Pleasantville]] 20:14, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:I'm not seeing why it's necessary to know that. coffeeandink's many years of posting about race, cultural appropriation, fandom, writing, internet drama, and massive fail stand firmly behind anything she has said in this particular discussion about Patrick, teresa, or anyone else involved. [[User:Ktempest|Tempest]] 06:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
::: I've just deleted the link to the LinkedIn page in your comment because [[coffeeandink]] does not want her LJ to be Googleable and connected to her full name. I hope we can respect that wish. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 22:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: I think that we can put that bit in about employment, which Pleasantville wants to be clear to outline some of the complexities of people's relationships. But I would like us to respect people's choices about pseudonymity as best we can. The need for anonymity is one of the reasons that women's history is hard to document. Let's do the best we can here. --[[User:Liz Henry|Liz Henry]] 23:01, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
::::: I was formulating an argument along these lines in the car on the way home, but you did it better. Thank you. --[[User:Jonquil|Jonquil]] 02:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't have my full name on my LJ because it's unique and I don't want it Google-able. Please remove the redirect and the page account.

I feel my first name is sufficiently unusual that people who are looking for the connection can draw it on their own.(request from coffeeandink 2009-02-06T17:38:53)

: Uh, yeeeahh. Speaking of which, does this Wiki have an outing policy? (Rather, an anti-outing policy?) Because if it doesn't, I foresee difficulties with outreach to media fannish communities. I did a quick search and didn't find anything.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:: Good idea. We have [[FSFwiki:Privacy]], but perhaps it needs to be more specific. (Philosophically, I don't bother with pushing policy until it's an issue.) Veejane, do you have any examples? Or would you like to edit the [[FSFwiki:Privacy|current privacy policy]]? --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:56, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Neither of those wikilinks goes anywhere. The policy appears to be [[FSFwiki:Privacy_policy|here]] and about a sentence long. (I also think it should be linked from the Getting Started page, since a privacy policy is baseline information for my attitude towards a site.) You've had one outing, above, and I can still find that outing by comparing the history of edits. So although the identifying data have been deleted from the page, they're still there for anyone to find. Basically, the outing is still occurring even now. By contrast, another wiki I've worked on, [http://fanlore.org/wiki/Fanlore:Identity_Protection Fanlore], has a policy that not only requires removal of outing data, but also hides those particular edits from the history, so the data can't be recovered. It might also be worth asking what tools admins have to control malicious outing. Will that fall under a harassment policy? I.... can't find a harassment policy. This all sounds paranoid, I realize. But better to have a policy and not need it than be flailing in the middle of an emergency without one.--[[User:Veejane|Veejane]] 16:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
:::: Veejane, no need to apologize for pushing for things like an outing policy and a harassment policy; they are things the wiki should probably have. I suspect it just hasn't needed them before now. --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

This is minor, but related to the overall "real name" discussion. Is there a reason why Elizabeth Bear's full name is after her pen name on the page? It's not as if she is known by her full name (she's been going by Elizabeth Bear and eBear since I've known her, lo these 10 years), nor is knowing her full name of use in the conversation. She's not hiding, it's not a "fan name" (not that I think we necessarily need to connect fan names to "real names"), so why is it necessary? --Tempest
: Fair enough, I'ma take it out. Do you think she wouldn't want it up there and it should be a "hide from edit" thing, or just take it out? --[[User:Vito excalibur|Vito excalibur]] 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T22:42:35Z

Vito excalibur: /* Dramatis personae */

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[The Magical Other]], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile spiralsheep LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only (on LiveJournal)
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]
* [[LiveJournal]] or LJ, an online blogging platform and social networking website

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Micole Iris Sudberg

2009-02-06T22:35:01Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Micole Iris Sudberg''' is a blogger who has published several fantasy short stories. She was formerly an Assistant Editor at [[Tor Books]]<ref>[http://www.tarakharper.com/k_factor.htm#writing TARA K. HARPER WRITER'S WORKSHOP: Factors that Influence the Success of a Book]</ref> who assisted [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] and worked with several consulting editors such as [[Terri Windling]], [[Delia Sherman]], [[Beth Meacham]], and [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]]. She no longer works in publishing.

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

{{DEFAULTSORT:Sudberg, Micole Iris}}
[[Category:Living people]]
[[Category:Year of birth missing]]
[[Category:Bloggers]]
{{stub}}

Coffeeandink

2009-02-06T22:33:46Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Coffeeandink''' is a blogger on [[Livejournal]].<ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/ Coffeeandink on Livejournal]</ref>.

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T22:32:03Z

Vito excalibur: /* Names and pseudonyms */

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T22:10:37Z

Vito excalibur: /* Timeline */

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[The Magical Other]], in which [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to ''[[Blood & Iron]]'' on [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html her LJ]. Post & discussion later [[flock|flocked]] or made private, then unlocked again.

:In [http://medievalist.livejournal.com/39227.html?thread=193339#t193339 a comment] left on Jan 16 below that entry, [[medievalist]] attacks [[Avalon's Willow]], saying among other things that "She's engaging in [[orcing]], performance art and pretty much [[blog-whoring]]."

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] aka "Micole" <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Pseudonyms

2009-02-06T20:27:02Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Pseudonyms''' are invented names, which, like [[initials]], can, if they are neutral, ambiguous or contrary to conventional use, allow an author to [[passing|pass]] for the other sex as well as disguise their identity.

Pseudonyms are frequently used online to separate a person's offline identity from their online words. Common reasons for this are the desire to avoid the threat of murder or rape<ref>[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=14783 The Attack on Kathy Sierra], SF Chronicle</ref>, and the desire to avoid losing one's job as a consequence of speaking online (being "dooced"<ref>[http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/050131-dooced.htm Dooced]: Macmillan English Dictionary Resource Site</ref><ref>[http://newmedia.wikia.com/wiki/Doocing Doocing]: Wikia Technology</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.blog/index.html?section=cnn_tech 'Bridget Jones' blogger fire fury], CNN</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4683815.stm Digital citizens: the blogger], BBC</ref>.) People may also speak online pseudonymously or anonymously in order to be [[trolling|offensive]] without harming their own reputation<ref>[http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/ John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory], Penny Arcade</ref>.

Internet pseudonyms may be otherwise known as "online handles" or "screennames".

=== Authors who have used pseudonyms ===
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* [[Louky Bersianik]]
* [[Jayge Carr]]
* [[Janine Cross]]
* [[C.L. Moore]]
* [[Sheri S. Tepper]]
* [[James Tiptree, Jr.]]
* [[Rebecca West]]
* [[M.K. Wren]]

==Further reading==
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* See also [[Female and gender-ambiguous names used by men]].''
* http://www.trussel.com/books/pseud_a.htm Author pseudonyms

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Creating SF]]
[[category:Women in SF]]
[[category:Names and naming]]

Pseudonyms

2009-02-06T20:25:20Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Pseudonyms''' are invented names, which, like [[initials]], can, if they are neutral, ambiguous or contrary to conventional use, allow an author to [[passing|pass]] for the other sex as well as disguise their identity.

Pseudonyms are frequently used online to separate a person's offline identity from their online words. Common reasons for this are the desire to avoid the threat of murder or rape<ref>[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=14783 The Attack on Kathy Sierra], SF Chronicle</ref>, and the desire to avoid losing one's job as a consequence of speaking online (being "dooced"<ref>[http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/050131-dooced.htm Dooced]: Macmillan English Dictionary Resource Site</ref><ref>[http://newmedia.wikia.com/wiki/Doocing Doocing]: Wikia Technology</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.blog/index.html?section=cnn_tech 'Bridget Jones' blogger fire fury], CNN</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4683815.stm Digital citizens: the blogger], BBC</ref>.) People may also speak online pseudonymously or anonymously in order to be [[trolling|offensive]] without harming their own reputation.

Internet pseudonyms may be otherwise known as "online handles" or "screennames".

=== Authors who have used pseudonyms ===
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* [[Louky Bersianik]]
* [[Jayge Carr]]
* [[Janine Cross]]
* [[C.L. Moore]]
* [[Sheri S. Tepper]]
* [[James Tiptree, Jr.]]
* [[Rebecca West]]
* [[M.K. Wren]]

==Further reading==
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* See also [[Female and gender-ambiguous names used by men]].''
* http://www.trussel.com/books/pseud_a.htm Author pseudonyms

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Creating SF]]
[[category:Women in SF]]
[[category:Names and naming]]

Pseudonyms

2009-02-06T20:24:55Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Pseudonyms''' are invented names, which, like [[initials]], can, if they are neutral, ambiguous or contrary to conventional use, allow an author to [[passing|pass]] for the other sex as well as disguise their identity.

Pseudonyms are frequently used online to separate a person's offline identity from their online words. Common reasons for this are the desire to avoid the threat of murder or rape<ref>[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=14783 The Attack on Kathy Sierra], SF Chronicle</ref>, and the desire to avoid losing one's job as a consequence of speaking online (being "dooced"<ref>[http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/050131-dooced.htm Dooced]: Macmillan English Dictionary Resource Site</ref><ref>[http://newmedia.wikia.com/wiki/Doocing Doocing]: Wikia Technology</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.blog/index.html?section=cnn_tech 'Bridget Jones' blogger fire fury], CNN</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4683815.stm Digital citizens: the blogger], BBC</ref>.) People may also speak online pseudonymously or anonymously in order to be [[trolling|offensive]] without harming their own reputation.

Internet pseudonyms may be otherwise known as "online handles" or "screennames".

=== Authors who have used pseudonyms ===
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* [[Louky Bersianik]]
* [[Jayge Carr]]
* [[Janine Cross]]
* [[C.L. Moore]]
* [[Sheri S. Tepper]]
* [[James Tiptree, Jr.]]
* [[Rebecca West]]
* [[M.K. Wren]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

==Further reading==
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* See also [[Female and gender-ambiguous names used by men]].''
* http://www.trussel.com/books/pseud_a.htm Author pseudonyms

[[Category:Creating SF]]
[[category:Women in SF]]
[[category:Names and naming]]

Pseudonyms

2009-02-06T20:23:42Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Pseudonyms''' are invented names, which, like [[initials]], can, if they are neutral, ambiguous or contrary to conventional use, allow an author to [[passing|pass]] for the other sex as well as disguise their identity.

Pseudonyms are frequently used online to separate a person's offline identity from their online words. Common reasons for this are the desire to avoid the threat of murder or rape<ref>[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=14783 The Attack on Kathy Sierra], SF Chronicle</ref>, and the desire to avoid losing one's job as a consequence of speaking online (being "dooced"<ref>[http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/050131-dooced.htm Dooced]: Macmillan English Dictionary Resource Site</ref><ref>[http://newmedia.wikia.com/wiki/Doocing Doocing]: Wikia Technology</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.blog/index.html?section=cnn_tech 'Bridget Jones' blogger fire fury], CNN</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4683815.stm Digital citizens: the blogger], BBC</ref>.) People may also speak online pseudonymously or anonymously in order to be [[trolling|offensive]] without harming their own reputation.

Internet pseudonyms may be otherwise known as "online handles" or "screennames".

=== Authors who have used pseudonyms ===
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* [[Louky Bersianik]]
* [[Jayge Carr]]
* [[Janine Cross]]
* [[C.L. Moore]]
* [[Sheri S. Tepper]]
* [[James Tiptree, Jr.]]
* [[Rebecca West]]
* [[M.K. Wren]]

==Further reading==
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* See also [[Female and gender-ambiguous names used by men]].''
* http://www.trussel.com/books/pseud_a.htm Author pseudonyms

[[Category:Creating SF]]
[[category:Women in SF]]
[[category:Names and naming]]

Pseudonyms

2009-02-06T20:22:56Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Pseudonyms''' are invented names, which, like [[initials]], can, if they are neutral, ambiguous or contrary to conventional use, allow an author to [[passing|pass]] for the other sex as well as disguise their identity.

Pseudonyms are frequently used online to separate a person's offline identity from their online words. Common reasons for this are the desire to avoid the threat of murder or rape<ref>[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=14783 The Attack on Kathy Sierra], SF Chronicle</ref>, and the desire to avoid losing one's job as a consequence of speaking online (being "dooced"<ref>[http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/050131-dooced.htm Dooced]: Macmillan English Dictionary Resource Site</ref><ref>[http://newmedia.wikia.com/wiki/Doocing Doocing]: Wikia Technology</ref><ref>[http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.blog/index.html?section=cnn_tech 'Bridget Jones' blogger fire fury], CNN</ref><ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4683815.stm Digital citizens: the blogger], BBC</ref>.) People may also speak online pseudonymously or anonymously in order to be [[trolling|offensive]] without harming their own reputation.

Otherwise known as "online handle", "screenname".

=== Authors who have used pseudonyms ===
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* [[Louky Bersianik]]
* [[Jayge Carr]]
* [[Janine Cross]]
* [[C.L. Moore]]
* [[Sheri S. Tepper]]
* [[James Tiptree, Jr.]]
* [[Rebecca West]]
* [[M.K. Wren]]

==Further reading==
* ''See [[List of women's pseudonyms and variant names]]'' for more.
* See also [[Female and gender-ambiguous names used by men]].''
* http://www.trussel.com/books/pseud_a.htm Author pseudonyms

[[Category:Creating SF]]
[[category:Women in SF]]
[[category:Names and naming]]

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T20:04:37Z

Vito excalibur: /* Terminology */

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

(January 14, 2009, probably? [[medievalist]] posts an explanation of phouka mythology in relation to Blood & Iron. Post & discussion later deleted/made unavailable.)

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]], [[medievalist]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers they criticize.

(Some of these comments occur in a post by [[mac_stone]] about child abuse in relation to unspecified current discussion, including [[pnh]]'s "smart" comment)

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([[ktempest]] on LJ<ref>[http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>, a science fiction & fantasy writer
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([[marydell]]<ref>[http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ]</ref>)
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as [[darkerblogistan]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and [[igorsanchez]]<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([[jaylake]]<ref>[http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([[davidlevine]]<ref>[http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ]</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([[tnh]]<ref>[http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction editor & [[BoingBoing]]'s comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly [[pnh]] on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([[willshetterly]]<ref>[http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ</ref>), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Micole Sudberg]] ([[coffeeandink]] aka "Micole" <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), blogger & editor
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]
* [[blog-whoring]]
* [[pseudonyms]]

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T19:54:09Z

Vito excalibur: /* Names and pseudonyms */

Cultural appropriation

2009-02-06T18:45:44Z

Vito excalibur: New page: '''Cultural appropriation''' is the act of a member of a group in authority using that authority to tell or use stories, icons, myths, art, etc. that belong to a group which does not have ...

'''Cultural appropriation''' is the act of a member of a group in authority using that authority to tell or use stories, icons, myths, art, etc. that belong to a group which does not have comparable power or authority to tell its own stories, etc.; especially in inaccurate, insulting or self-serving ways, and especially without giving attribution or context.

Ed: That is my amateur definition. The definition of cultural appropriation is extremely controversial. For some of the history of the discussion of cultural appropriation in science fiction, please see [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)]] and [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)]].

==Further reading==
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation Cultural appropriation on wikipedia]: "the adoption of some specific elements of one culture by a different cultural group", a much more neutral and all-encompassing definition.
* [http://theangryblackwoman.com/2009/01/15/what-is-cultural-appropriation/ What is Cultural Appropriation?], from theangryblackwoman.
* [http://www.irosf.com/q/zine/article/10087 "Appropriate Cultural Appropriation"], by [[Nisi Shawl]].

{{seed}}

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T18:16:36Z

Vito excalibur: /* Dramatis personae */

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers the criticize.

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] aka "Micole" <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ])
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]] (participated pseudonymously as darkerblogistan<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> and igorsanchez<ref>[http://igorsanchez.livejournal.com/profile igorsanchez LJ profile]</ref>; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ])
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ), a science fiction editor & BoingBoing's comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly pnh on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T17:47:30Z

Vito excalibur: /* Internal Links for Blog Post Titles */

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T17:47:14Z

Vito excalibur: /* Internal Links for Blog Post Titles */

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T17:45:58Z

Vito excalibur:

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers the criticize.

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

* [[Avalon's Willow]] <ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref> / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[chopchica]] <ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[ciderpress]] <ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[coffeeandink]] aka "Micole" <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Mary Dell]] ([http://marydell.livejournal.com/profile marydell on LJ])
* [[delux_vivens]] <ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> (participated pseudonymously as darkerblogistan; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>* [[oyceter]] <ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ])
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ), a science fiction editor & BoingBoing's comment section moderator
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly pnh on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[rydra_wong]] <ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>,: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[sparkymonster]] <ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[spiralsheep]] <ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[vito_excalibur]] <ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yeloson]] <ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[yonmei]] <ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T17:33:13Z

Vito excalibur: /* Links and external references */

RaceFail 09 is a term used to refer to an extended discussion of race and racism in science fiction books, culture, fandom, and criticism that began in January 2009. It has been called by many other names, including the Great Cultural Appropriation Debate of Doom 3 (or 2), and RaceFail 9000.

(Ed. note: A more positive name could highlight the community strength and backup shown... but so far it's mostly been described as "fail".)

== Timeline ==

(There is a good outline of one on avalon's willow's blog -- also see discussion tab for notes on formatting and linking0)

January 8, 2009: [[Another shot at thinking about the Other]] by [[Jay Lake]] on [http://jaylake.livejournal.com/1692287.html LJ]

:This post came a few days before the main source of discussion in Elizabeth Bear's journal, and through it is not stated, may have contributed to her musings. Inspired by a discussion on ''The Edge of the American West'' about "speaking from cultural authority and presumed expertise." Lake expressed disdain for the idea that white writers don't have "standing" to use Aboriginal or First Nations material in their fiction. The comment thread, 78 responses long, was filled with fail. A lot of 101-level thinking.

January 12, 2009: [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html LJ]

:The main source of fail. Bear explains how to write The Other.

January 13, 2009: [[I Didn't Dream of Dragons]] by [[deepad]] on [http://deepad.livejournal.com/29656.html LJ]

:Not a direct response to Bear's post, but triggered by it. "...this is more my commentary on the Western, White novels and blogs I have been reading recently, and my experience as an Indian reader."

January 13, 2009: [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] by [[Avalon's Willow]] on [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2009/01/open-letter-to-elizabeth-bear.html Seeking Avalon]

:A response to [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544111.html?thread=30733743&style=mine#t30733743 a thread] in [[whatever you're doing, you're probably wrong.]]

::I'm not calling you a monster. I'm not calling you a racist. But I am calling you clueless and ill worded and more than a touch thoughtless. Your ability to think about things, ''sometimes'', does not erase my pain or lack.

January 14, 2009: [[real magic can never be made by offering up someone else's liver.]] by [[Elizabeth Bear]] on [http://matociquala.livejournal.com/1544999.html LJ]

:A response to [[Open Letter: To Elizabeth Bear]] in which Bear acknowledges that [[Avalon's Willow]]'s criticism is valid. Comments start out badly ("Over sensitivity to perceived racism tends to result in the nit picking of words and sentence structure.") and go downhill quickly.

January 14, 2009: [[Untitled Post about Avalon's Willow's open letter to Bear]] by [[Sarah Monette]] on [http://truepenny.livejournal.com/625351.html LJ]

:Acknowledges that intent and result do not always match up. Comments devolve into failfest, marked particularly by [[Macallister Stone]] and [[Emma Bull]] invalidating criticism because it isn't academic enough and also because some readers aren't as smart as the writers the criticize.

(some other stuff here)
(including pnh and others commenting on chopchica's LJ in discussion of mac_stone's statements)
(Patrick Nielsen Hayden deletes his pnh LJ)

January 26, 2009: [[I'm taking this about as well as you'd expect.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6256.html LJ] (original is now friends-locked)

:Teresa's response to Patrick's emotional state after been called on his comments. Original post and comments full of fail and including several problematic uses of language.

January 26, 2009: [[My only statement on the cultural appropriation imbroglio]] by [[David Levine]] on [http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html LJ]

:In response to Levine finding out why [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] deleted his LJ. With comments disabled, Levine proceeds to chide the "anti-racist" side for scaring him and other white writers off of writing characters of color and ends with "Is this what you wanted?"

January 27, 2009: [[The last comment that went up before I flocked the previous post.]] by [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] on [http://tnh.livejournal.com/6434.html LJ]

:A post meant to explain why the previous post disappeared for so many readers. Some conversations and fights continued in the comments here and include failure by Teresa to shut down problem comments and language because the people using said language were on her side.

== Links and external references ==

*[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/146697.html Rydra Wong's list of over two hundred posts constituting RaceFail '09]

== Dramatis personae ==

===Pseudonymous or Partly Pseudonymous===

* [[Avalon's Willow]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/2006/08/about-seeking-avalon.html Seeking Avalon: About Seeking Avalon]</ref>) / [http://seeking-avalon.blogspot.com/ Seeking Avalon]
* [[chopchica]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://chopchica.livejournal.com/profile chopchica LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[ciderpress]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://ciderpress.livejournal.com/profile ciderpress LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[coffeeandink]] aka "Micole" <ref>[http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/profile coffeeandink LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[deepad]] aka "Deepa D."<ref>[http://deepad.livejournal.com/profile deepad LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[delux_vivens]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://delux-vivens.livejournal.com/profile delux-vivens LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[oyceter]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://oyceter.livejournal.com/profile oyceter LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[rydra_wong]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://rydra-wong.livejournal.com/profile rydra-wong LJ User Profile]</ref>),: compiled lists of links to posts on the subject, sometimes more than daily.
* [[sparkymonster]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://sparkymonster.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[spiralsheep]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://spiralsheep.livejournal.com/profile sparkymonster LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[vito_excalibur]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://vito-excalibur.livejournal.com/profile vito-excalibur LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[yeloson]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://yeloson.livejournal.com/profile yeloson LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[yonmei]] (a pseudonym<ref>[http://blogs.feministsf.net/?author=40 Yonmei's posts at Feminist SF - the blog]</ref>)
* [[zvi_likes_tv]] aka [[zvi]], a writer of [[fan fiction]]<ref>[http://www.slashx-files.com/aboutme.html zvi reflects]</ref><ref>[http://zvi_likes_tv.livejournal.com/profile zvi_likes_tv LJ User Profile]</ref>

===Identified by Name===
* [[kynn]] aka [[Kynn Bartlett]]<ref>[http://kynn.com/ kynn.com]</ref><ref>[http://kynn.livejournal.com/profile kynn LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Elizabeth Bear]] aka [[Sarah Bear Elizabeth Wishnevsky]]<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Bear Wlizabeth Bear Wikipedia entry]</ref> ([[matociquala]]<ref>[http://matociquala.livejournal.com/profile matociquala LJ User Profile]</ref> on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[K. Tempest Bradford]] ([http://ktempest.livejournal.com/profile ktempest] on LJ), a science fiction writer<ref>[http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?K._Tempest_Bradford K. Tempest Bradford at the ISFDB]</ref>
* [[Emma Bull]] aka [[coffeem]]<ref>[http://coffeeem.livejournal.com/profile coffeeem LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Luke Jackson]]<ref>[http://darkerblogistan.livejournal.com/profile darkerblogistan LJ profile]</ref> (participated pseudonymously as darkerblogistan; unmasked by kynn<ref>[http://kynn.com/next/2009/01/24/author-asshattery-luke-jackson/ Author Asshattery: Luke Jackson] by [[kynn]]</ref>)
* [[nojojojo]] aka [[Nora Jemison]] who writes as [[N. K. Jemisin]]<ref>[http://nkjemisin.com/my-fiction/ Epiphany 2.0 - Author NK Jemison]</ref><ref>[http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/profile nojojojo LJ User Profile]</ref>
* [[Jay Lake]] ([http://jaylake.livejournal.com/profile jaylake on LJ]), a science fiction writer
* [[David Levine]] ([http://davidlevine.livejournal.com/154220.html davidlevine on LJ])
* [[Sarah Monette]] aka [[truepenny]]<ref>[http://truepenny.livejournal.com/profile truepenny LJ user profile]</ref>, a science fiction writer
* [[Patrick Nielsen Hayden]] (formerly pnh on LJ; deleted account), a science fiction editor
* [[Teresa Nielsen Hayden]] ([http://tnh.livejournal.com/profile tnh] on LJ), a science fiction editor & BoingBoing's comment section moderator
* [[Roz Kaveney]], ([http://rozk.livejournal.com/profile RozK] on LJ), transwoman journalist and publisher's adviser.
* [[kate_nepveu]] ([[Kate Nepveu]]<ref>[http://kate_nepveu.livejournal.com/profile kate_nepveu LJ User Profile]</ref><ref>[http://www.steelypips.org/ steelypips.org]</ref><ref>[http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&user=5984 Kate Nepveu Tor.com user profile]</ref>)
* [[medievalist]] ( [[Lisa L. Spangenberg]]<ref>[http://medievalist.livejournal.com/profile medievalist LJ User Profile]</ref>)
* [[Will Shetterly]] ([http://willshetterly.livejournal.com/profile willshetterly] on LJ), a science fiction writer
* [[mac_stone]]<ref>[http://mac_stone.livejournal.com/profile mac_stone LJ User Profile]</ref> (identified as [[MacAllister Stone]]<ref>[http://www.macallisterstone.com/stones/ Stones in the Field]</ref> above)

== Terminology ==
* [[orcing]] or orking
* [[white women's tears]]
* [[privilege]]
* [[flock]] (read as F-lock), locking a post to be friends-only
* [[friending]] and defriending - terms in social media
* [[fail]]
* [[trolling]]

== See Also ==
* [[Cultural Appropriation (WisCon 30 Panel)‎]]
* [[Cultural Appropriation Revisited (WisCon 31 panel)‎]]
* [[cultural appropriation]]

==References==
<div class="references-small">
<references />
</div>

[[Category:Internet drama]]
[[Category:Online discussions]]
[[Category:RaceFail 09]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category:2009 events]]

Flock

2009-02-06T17:27:46Z

Vito excalibur: New page: Flocking a page (pronounced "f-locking") means setting the security of a post on Livejournal to be "friends-only". When an LJ user flocks a page, only the people on her friendslist can...

[[Flocking]] a page (pronounced "f-locking") means setting the security of a post on Livejournal to be "friends-only". When an LJ user flocks a page, only the people on her friendslist can see it or comment on it. A post can also be filtered to be visible to a subset of the user's friendslist (or "flist".)

It is widely considered unethical to copy and paste, or repost, the contents of a page which was originally posted under friendslock. As in the case of private email, if you can see a flocked post, you are on a list of trusted people, and the post is not meant for public consumption. However, if the post was originally unlocked, especially if it was unlocked for long enough that other people made comments on it: the post is usually considered to have been published, and fair to republish, even if it is subsequently locked.

Since a common tactic in internet arguments is locking posts which turn out to be inflammatory, or deleting comments, people may take screencaps or freezepages of other people's posts in order to have evidence of what was said, in case it is later hidden.

==Further reading==
* [http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=24 Livejournal Faq: How do I control who can read my journal entries?]
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screenshot Wikipedia explanation of screencaps and how to take them]
* [http://www.freezepage.com/ FreezePage: captures the state of a web page at a moment in time]

Talk:RaceFail 09

2009-02-06T17:05:14Z

Vito excalibur: /* Internal Links for Blog Post Titles */

Privilege

2009-02-06T16:58:58Z

Vito excalibur:

'''Privilege''' is a set of unearned advantages or benefits that is systematically provided to people in one class and not to people in another class. Privilege is not binary: one does not either have privilege or not have it. A poor white woman will have white privilege as compared to a rich black woman, and the rich black woman will have class privilege as compared to her.

Systematic privilege is not something that an individual can choose to take on or give up. Because it is not about what the individual does, being instead about how other people treat her, it is like a nickname: it is given or withheld from the individual without her permission. [[Peggy McIntosh]] gives an example of white privilege: " I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented." This is an advantage that Ms. McIntosh has in life, but it is not one that she can give up.

One of the most important features of privilege is that it tends to be invisible to the people who have it. Rather than being an obvious benefit, privilege usually takes the form of a difficulty or obstacle that other classes have to face, but is removed for the members of one class. Those who have it, therefore, find it difficult to see an absence. To use another of Peggy McIntosh's examples: "If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race." A white person in this situation is likely to say "That isn't privilege, that is just the way it should be." That is indeed just the way it <em>should</em> be; but since that is not the way it is for everyone, the fact that it is that way for white people is a privilege that they have.

Members of a privileged class are often asked by others to "check their privilege". This may be used in the sense of "check your privilege at the door": when a member of a privileged class enters a space which is dominated by people of another class, she may need to make a deliberate effort to adjust to not having some of the privileges she is usually given. It may also be used in the sense of "check whether you are unconsciously taking advantage of your privilege, or assuming that your privilege is universal."

The theory of '''privilege''' was first advanced by [[Peggy McIntosh]] in [http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html "White Privilege: Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack"], first published in ''Independent School'', Winter 1990.

==See also==
* [[male privilege]]
* [[white privilege]]

==Further reading==
* [http://brown-betty.livejournal.com/305643.html A primer on privilege: what it is and what it isn't.]
* [http://blog.shrub.com/archives/tekanji/2006-03-08_146 “Check my what?” On privilege and what we can do about it] by [[Andrea Rubenstein]]
* [http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/09/26/a-list-of-privilege-lists/ List of privilege lists], Amptoons
* [http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2005/12/02/privilege-is-driving-a-smooth-road-and-not-even-knowing-it/ Privilege is driving a smooth road and not even knowing it], Amptoons

[[Category:Theory]]
[[Category:Racism]]
[[Category:Sexism]]