ConFuse 93 Guest of Honor Speech - Revision history

Lquilter: notes

2007-09-19T13:51:47Z

notes

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	edited by Liz Henry		transcript edited by Liz Henry & other FSFwikians

			[[Category:Speeches]]
			[[Category:1993 publications]]

Lquilter: /* Today */ copyediting

2007-09-19T13:48:36Z

Today: copyediting

Lquilter: /* New Wave */ fix link

2007-09-19T13:42:30Z

New Wave: fix link

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	: I hope that when the New Wave has departed its froth and receded, the vast and solid shore of science fiction will appear once more.		: I hope that when the New Wave has departed its froth and receded, the vast and solid shore of science fiction will appear once more.

	A host of new authors either appeared or became prominent at this time: [[Samuel Delany]], author of the experimental novel ''[[Dhalgren]]''; [[Roger Zelazny]], [[Thomas Disch]], [[Michael Moorcock]]. Among the new authors were a number of strong women writers, including [[Kate Wilhelm]], [[Ursula Le Guin]], [[Joanna Russ]], [[Carol Emshwiller], and [[Pamela Zoline]]. Most of these female writers wouldn't attain their full prominence until the 1970s, but their initial voices were beginning to be heard in the 60s. And the foremost anthologist of the 60s was [[Judith Merrill]], who along with Michael Moorcock in England and Damon Knight in the United States made New Wave authors a solid force in science fiction by uniting their stories in showcase anthologies.		A host of new authors either appeared or became prominent at this time: [[Samuel Delany]], author of the experimental novel ''[[Dhalgren]]''; [[Roger Zelazny]], [[Thomas Disch]], [[Michael Moorcock]]. Among the new authors were a number of strong women writers, including [[Kate Wilhelm]], [[Ursula Le Guin]], [[Joanna Russ]], [[Carol Emshwiller]], and [[Pamela Zoline]]. Most of these female writers wouldn't attain their full prominence until the 1970s, but their initial voices were beginning to be heard in the 60s. And the foremost anthologist of the 60s was [[Judith Merrill]], who along with Michael Moorcock in England and Damon Knight in the United States made New Wave authors a solid force in science fiction by uniting their stories in showcase anthologies.

	There was still some resistance to the idea of women as writers in what had been traditionally masculine fields. A famous story about this concerns Ursula Le Guin's short story ''[[Nine Lives]]'' which appeared in Playboy in 1969. If you haven't read ''Nine Lives'', I think it is one of the finest cloning stories written, it is really a moving and well done story. When Playboy bought it they approach Ursula Le Guin and in her words asked very gently if she would mind if the story was published under [[U. K. Le Guin]], not [[Ursula K. Le Guin]]. And the reason they said to her, very gently, is that female authors made the male readers of Playboy nervous. What sounds even more remarkable to us now is that Ursula agreed. She wrote much later ''At the time in 1969 it did not seem important.'' Later on it would of course seem very important.		There was still some resistance to the idea of women as writers in what had been traditionally masculine fields. A famous story about this concerns Ursula Le Guin's short story ''[[Nine Lives]]'' which appeared in Playboy in 1969. If you haven't read ''Nine Lives'', I think it is one of the finest cloning stories written, it is really a moving and well done story. When Playboy bought it they approach Ursula Le Guin and in her words asked very gently if she would mind if the story was published under [[U. K. Le Guin]], not [[Ursula K. Le Guin]]. And the reason they said to her, very gently, is that female authors made the male readers of Playboy nervous. What sounds even more remarkable to us now is that Ursula agreed. She wrote much later ''At the time in 1969 it did not seem important.'' Later on it would of course seem very important.

Lquilter: /* New Wave */ fmtting, copy-editing, links

2007-09-19T13:41:17Z

New Wave: fmtting, copy-editing, links

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Lquilter: /* Early SF */ eras

2007-09-19T13:17:04Z

Early SF: eras

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Lquilter: /* Women in American Science Fiction */ subheads

2007-09-19T12:55:28Z

Women in American Science Fiction: subheads

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	I have been writing science fiction for fifteen years. As both reader and writer I have encountered a lot of theories about what science fiction is really about. Is it about the workings of science? Is it about our own society seen in deliberately distorted ways through the lenses of other societies? Is it about our sub-conscious fear of change? Is it about the power of gadgets? The power of wonder? The power of marketing categories as disgruntles writers, who aren't earning the big bucks, sometimes complain? You could probably make out a case for any or all of these things. My own conclusion after reading thousands of both good and not so good science fiction stories is that science fiction and fantasy are about power. The power of science. The power of magic. The power of an idea or a technology. The power of the individual, the power of the group or often, very often, the power of power.		I have been writing science fiction for fifteen years. As both reader and writer I have encountered a lot of theories about what science fiction is really about. Is it about the workings of science? Is it about our own society seen in deliberately distorted ways through the lenses of other societies? Is it about our sub-conscious fear of change? Is it about the power of gadgets? The power of wonder? The power of marketing categories as disgruntles writers, who aren't earning the big bucks, sometimes complain? You could probably make out a case for any or all of these things. My own conclusion after reading thousands of both good and not so good science fiction stories is that science fiction and fantasy are about power. The power of science. The power of magic. The power of an idea or a technology. The power of the individual, the power of the group or often, very often, the power of power.

			===Women===
	So where do women fit into this definition? Women are often defined as a powerless group, at least relative to men. There are some statistics to bear this out. Even now, in America women earn on the average 64 cent to every dollar that men earn. This is up two cents from five years ago when they earned 62 cents for every dollar, comparing full time women in the work force to full time men in the work force. A California study showed that after divorce the real income of men rose on an average of 41%; that of ex-wives with custody of children fell 73%. Women in management freqently hit the so-called ''[[glass ceiling]]'' -- rising in equal numbers with men through the ranks of middle management but then finding it increasingly difficult to break through into top managerial positions.		So where do women fit into this definition? Women are often defined as a powerless group, at least relative to men. There are some statistics to bear this out. Even now, in America women earn on the average 64 cent to every dollar that men earn. This is up two cents from five years ago when they earned 62 cents for every dollar, comparing full time women in the work force to full time men in the work force. A California study showed that after divorce the real income of men rose on an average of 41%; that of ex-wives with custody of children fell 73%. Women in management freqently hit the so-called ''[[glass ceiling]]'' -- rising in equal numbers with men through the ranks of middle management but then finding it increasingly difficult to break through into top managerial positions.

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	Given this diversity of situations, it's probably not surprising that women science fiction writers themselves don't agree on how women fit into science fiction's central theme of power. Listen to two prominent female writers with opposing views on the political implications of writing female characters in their science fiction. First is [[Pat Murphy]], [[Nebula Award]] winner for her novel [[The Falling Woman]] and also for her short story ''[[Rachel in Love]]'':		Given this diversity of situations, it's probably not surprising that women science fiction writers themselves don't agree on how women fit into science fiction's central theme of power. Listen to two prominent female writers with opposing views on the political implications of writing female characters in their science fiction. First is [[Pat Murphy]], [[Nebula Award]] winner for her novel [[The Falling Woman]] and also for her short story ''[[Rachel in Love]]'':

	One of the things I find difficult, when I find myself close to a political agenda, is to write a weak woman character. But I have to, and that's one reason I stay away from a political agenda in my writing -- it would force me into creating only good gay characters, only strong women characters. Though politically I can see it, literarily it's a problem.		: One of the things I find difficult, when I find myself close to a political agenda, is to write a weak woman character. But I have to, and that's one reason I stay away from a political agenda in my writing -- it would force me into creating only good gay characters, only strong women characters. Though politically I can see it, literarily it's a problem.

	It's not a problem, however, for [[Connie Willis]], winner of five [[Nebulas]] and three [[Hugo Awards]], who vehemently disagrees with [[Pat Murphy]]. Willis says:		It's not a problem, however, for [[Connie Willis]], winner of five [[Nebulas]] and three [[Hugo Awards]], who vehemently disagrees with [[Pat Murphy]]. Willis says:

	I am sometimes in serious trouble with the feminists because I do not always write stories that they consider to be really feminist stories. Whatever that is. As near as I can tell, they mean stories in which their viewpoint is espoused. This is ridiculous. Writers aren't mouthpieces for special interest groups -- or for any groups.		: I am sometimes in serious trouble with the feminists because I do not always write stories that they consider to be really feminist stories. Whatever that is. As near as I can tell, they mean stories in which their viewpoint is espoused. This is ridiculous. Writers aren't mouthpieces for special interest groups -- or for any groups.

	In between these two poles, you find women sf writers who believe in what Murphy calls ''a political agenda'' for women characters sometimes, under some circumstances, for some reasons. Probably as many reasons as there are female science fiction and fantasy writers writing female science fiction and fantasy. Which brings us to another question: What exactly is female science fiction/fantasy? Is a story female sf if it's merely written by a woman? Is it female sf if it has a female protagonist, no matter who wrote it? Or, to be female sf, does it have to take a feminist position on a specifically gender-related issue such as childbirth, the position of women in society, or the differences between men and women? These are three very different definitions of ''female science fiction.'' Finally, does it matter? Are there any differences between male and female writers great enough to justify even talking about the issue in the first place?		In between these two poles, you find women sf writers who believe in what Murphy calls ''a political agenda'' for women characters sometimes, under some circumstances, for some reasons. Probably as many reasons as there are female science fiction and fantasy writers writing female science fiction and fantasy. Which brings us to another question: What exactly is female science fiction/fantasy? Is a story female sf if it's merely written by a woman? Is it female sf if it has a [[female protagonist]], no matter who wrote it? Or, to be female sf, does it have to take a [[feminist]] position on a specifically [[gender-related issue]] such as [[childbirth]], the position of women in society, or the [[gender difference\|differences between men and women]]? These are three very different definitions of ''female science fiction.'' Finally, does it matter? Are there any differences between male and female writers great enough to justify even talking about the issue in the first place?

	Again, science fiction is fragmented on these questions, just as it is on the ones we raised previously. So before I address any of these issues directly, I'd like to back up a little bit and talk about that fragmentation itself. It comes out of the history of science fiction itself, in which women as both authors and characters have played different roles at different times.		Again, science fiction is fragmented on these questions, just as it is on the ones we raised previously. So before I address any of these issues directly, I'd like to back up a little bit and talk about that fragmentation itself. It comes out of the history of science fiction itself, in which women as both authors and characters have played different roles at different times.

			===Early SF===
	The first modern science fiction writer was a woman, [[Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley]], whose book [[Frankenstein]] was published in 1818. [[Mary Shelley]] was a self-defined feminist. After her, however, science fiction was for a long time almost an exclusively male preserve. The great Victorian science fiction writers, H. G. Wells and Jules Verne and Edward Bulwer-Lytton, were men. So were nearly all of their significant characters. In fact, one of Verne's biographers wrote approvingly that Verne ''never sullied his pages by descending to scenes of lust.'' There were a few women among these nineteenth-century writers, such as the American [[Charlotte Perkins Gilman]], who wrote [[Herland]]. Herland is a pleasant [[Utopia]] populated exclusively by women and dominated by the ideal of [[Motherhood]]. There were also a few female characters, usually in fantasy, that have entered the literary consciousness, most notably Alice from [[Alice's Adventures in Wonderland]]. But, in general, nineteenth-century science fiction was written about, by, and for men.		The first modern science fiction writer was a woman, [[Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley]], whose book [[Frankenstein]] was published in 1818. [[Mary Shelley]] was a self-defined feminist. After her, however, science fiction was for a long time almost an exclusively male preserve. The great Victorian science fiction writers, H. G. Wells and Jules Verne and Edward Bulwer-Lytton, were men. So were nearly all of their significant characters. In fact, one of Verne's biographers wrote approvingly that Verne ''never sullied his pages by descending to scenes of lust.'' There were a few women among these nineteenth-century writers, such as the American [[Charlotte Perkins Gilman]], who wrote [[Herland]]. Herland is a pleasant [[Utopia]] populated exclusively by women and dominated by the ideal of [[Motherhood]]. There were also a few female characters, usually in fantasy, that have entered the literary consciousness, most notably Alice from [[Alice's Adventures in Wonderland]]. But, in general, nineteenth-century science fiction was written about, by, and for men.

Liz Henry: /* Audience Responses */

2007-04-21T06:38:29Z

Audience Responses

Liz Henry at 06:35, 21 April 2007

2007-04-21T06:35:09Z

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	~~'''~~Women in American Science Fiction~~'''~~		===Women in American Science Fiction===

	I have to start by saying that I had half a carafe of wine at dinner so I am not exactly sure how this is going to go but I have been told that I		I have to start by saying that I had half a carafe of wine at dinner so I am not exactly sure how this is going to go but I have been told that I
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	Applause		Applause

			===Audience Responses===
	Publik Nancy Kress: In some ways I feel a little guilty inflicting such an angry speech on people who have been so nice to me but I am, after all, discussing what seems to me the truth of American science fiction. Does anyone have a question or a comment?		Publik Nancy Kress: In some ways I feel a little guilty inflicting such an angry speech on people who have been so nice to me but I am, after all, discussing what seems to me the truth of American science fiction. Does anyone have a question or a comment?

Liz Henry at 06:33, 21 April 2007

2007-04-21T06:33:25Z

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Liz Henry at 05:28, 21 April 2007

2007-04-21T05:28:51Z

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	Publik Nancy Kress: And all of you people who have been sitting there steaming because you so violently disagree with me can take all night to group your thoughts and we will go head to head again tomorrow. Thank you.		Publik Nancy Kress: And all of you people who have been sitting there steaming because you so violently disagree with me can take all night to group your thoughts and we will go head to head again tomorrow. Thank you.


			edited by Liz Henry

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	So let's label as ''feminine'' those stories primarily concerned about relationships. Other traits that make a story traditionally ''feminine'' are a low concern with technology, a tendency to focus on the powerless and the disenfranchised, and a concern with such traditionally female activities as childbirth, the care of children, lesbianism, domestic activities.		So let's label as ''feminine'' those stories primarily concerned about relationships. Other traits that make a story traditionally ''feminine'' are a low concern with technology, a tendency to focus on the powerless and the disenfranchised, and a concern with such traditionally female activities as childbirth, the care of children, lesbianism, domestic activities.

	Now, at the other end of the scale, consider as ''masculine'' those stories more concerned with physical action than with the ambiguities of relationships. Stories which focus on characters who may start out powerless but grow into political and economic power, like Gully Foyle in Alfred Bester's classic novel The Stars My Destination. Stories highly involved with technology or ''hard'' science. Stories in which home, hearth, and children play a secondary role, if they're present at all.		Now, at the other end of the scale, consider as ''masculine'' those stories more concerned with physical action than with the ambiguities of relationships. Stories which focus on characters who may start out powerless but grow into political and economic power, like Gully Foyle in [[Alfred Bester]]'s classic novel ''[[The Stars My Destination]]''. Stories highly involved with technology or ''hard'' science. Stories in which home, hearth, and children play a secondary role, if they're present at all.

	Now plot where all the science fiction writers you know fall on that scale. I think what you'd end up with is two overlapping bell-shaped curves. Some of the female writes would be at the far end of the female side. But some of them like Louis McMaster Bujold and Pat Cadigan would be sloping towards what we call masculine science fiction. Most of the male writers might end up on the masculine end, Gregory Benford and David Brin perhaps but you would also find James Patrick Kelly and John Varley with a lot of their work sloping towards the female side. You wouldn't end up with a dichotomy. You would end up with two overlapping bell-shaped curves.		Now plot where all the science fiction writers you know fall on that scale. I think what you'd end up with is two overlapping bell-shaped curves. Some of the female writes would be at the far end of the female side. But some of them like [[Lois McMaster Bujold\|Louis McMaster Bujold]] [transcriber's typo] and [[Pat Cadigan]] would be sloping towards what we call masculine science fiction. Most of the male writers might end up on the masculine end, [[Gregory Benford]] and [[David Brin]] perhaps but you would also find [[James Patrick Kelly]] and [[John Varley]] with a lot of their work sloping towards the female side. You wouldn't end up with a dichotomy. You would end up with two overlapping bell-shaped curves.

	Having said that, I'd like to describe two recent science fiction stories that attracted a lot of attention, ''For I Have Touched the Sky'' and Falling Free. ''For I Have Touched The Sky'' is a sensitive relationship-based story about an African child, a girl, who wants very much to transcend the limits that her society places on women and tries to learn to use a computer. She is blocked in this by all of the efforts of the various tribal members and eventually, out of despair, she commits suicide. ''Falling Free'' on the other hand has a male central character who is an engineer and who saves a group of doomed people on a hollowed out asteroid by making the whole thing into a starship, using science, and moving it far beyond the reaches of the enemy. For those of you that don't already know this, and you probably already do all of you, the first story, the one with sensitive relationships about the little girl was written by a male, Mike Resnick, ''For I Have Touched the Sky''. The one about engineering and science and the character who triumphs in the end through science and technology was written by a female, Louis McMaster Bujold's Nebula award winning novel Falling Free.		Having said that, I'd like to describe two recent science fiction stories that attracted a lot of attention, "[[For I Have Touched the Sky]]" and "[[Falling Free]]". "[[For I Have Touched The Sky]]" is a sensitive relationship-based story about an African child, a girl, who wants very much to transcend the limits that her society places on women and tries to learn to use a computer. She is blocked in this by all of the efforts of the various tribal members and eventually, out of despair, she commits suicide. ''[[Falling Free]]'' on the other hand has a male central character who is an engineer and who saves a group of doomed people on a hollowed out asteroid by making the whole thing into a starship, using science, and moving it far beyond the reaches of the enemy. For those of you that don't already know this, and you probably already do all of you, the first story, the one with sensitive relationships about the little girl was written by a male, [[Mike Resnick]], ''For I Have Touched the Sky''. The one about engineering and science and the character who triumphs in the end through science and technology was written by a female, [[Lois McMaster Bujold\|Louis McMaster Bujold]]'s [sic] Nebula award winning novel ''[[Falling Free]]''.

	So I bring this up just to point out that there are absolutely no hard and fast conclusions you can make. There are no complete absolutes in the field of science fiction. And I think that what we have to consider when we look at female science fiction and we ask the question ''does it have equal status with male science fiction?'' that the answer itself is going to be as complex as some of the individual examples.		So I bring this up just to point out that there are absolutely no hard and fast conclusions you can make. There are no complete absolutes in the field of science fiction. And I think that what we have to consider when we look at female science fiction and we ask the question ''does it have equal status with male science fiction?'' that the answer itself is going to be as complex as some of the individual examples.
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	The third class of ''female science fiction,'' however, is not quite the same. You'll remember that the third class is stories centered specifically on feminist issues related to the position of women in our society. I'd like to read you a quote from a popular history of science fiction written by a respected editor in the field, in fact he was my editor, a man who's been involved in science fiction in myriad capacities for over thirty years. He says:		The third class of ''female science fiction,'' however, is not quite the same. You'll remember that the third class is stories centered specifically on feminist issues related to the position of women in our society. I'd like to read you a quote from a popular history of science fiction written by a respected editor in the field, in fact he was my editor, a man who's been involved in science fiction in myriad capacities for over thirty years. He says:

	It matters little that most of the women writing science fiction command popularity with only a minority of the total science fiction community. The source of the power of these new women writers in the field at present is that within their own core audience of (for the most part) adolescent and young women, they are transcendently heroic.		: It matters little that most of the women writing science fiction command popularity with only a minority of the total science fiction community. The source of the power of these new women writers in the field at present is that within their own core audience of (for the most part) adolescent and young women, they are transcendently heroic.

	I don't know who this editor thinks it ''matters little'' to if women science fiction writers have only a minority readership, but I can assure you that it doesn't matter only little to me. It matters a lot to me whether I have a minority readership or a large readership. It matters a lot to me, to my royalty checks, to my reputation. How many people are interested in reading me and how many people are not interesting in reading me not because they think I am a lousy writer which is their choice but simply because they have decided that they don't want to read female science fiction. I think this editor has completely missed the boat and what is depressing is that if I told you he was, he is one of the most respected and actually one of the most competent editors in the field.		I don't know who this editor thinks it "matters little" to if women science fiction writers have only a minority readership, but I can assure you that it doesn't matter only little to me. It matters a lot to me whether I have a minority readership or a large readership. It matters a lot to me, to my royalty checks, to my reputation. How many people are interested in reading me and how many people are not interesting in reading me not because they think I am a lousy writer which is their choice but simply because they have decided that they don't want to read female science fiction. I think this editor has completely missed the boat and what is depressing is that if I told you he was, he is one of the most respected and actually one of the most competent editors in the field.

	This editor, I'd like to point out, is not threatened by, or frightened of, overtly feminist science fiction. He's just dismissive. It's just meant for a ''minority'' of readers, not for most people -- just for those other female readers who happen to find it ''transcendent.''		This editor, I'd like to point out, is not threatened by, or frightened of, overtly feminist science fiction. He's just dismissive. It's just meant for a "minority" of readers, not for most people -- just for those other female readers who happen to find it "transcendent."

	But why should fiction that tells stories about the gender-specific problems of 51% of the population -- their unique situations, trials, anger -- be less interesting to the ''majority'' of readers than stories about the oppression and anger of, say, scaly-skinned aliens living on a planet orbiting a distant star? If the story is well and compellingly told, it should gain -- not lose -- power by being relevant to the power distribution in the here and now. Such stories should be of no less inherent interest to male readers than that of any other group whose history and biology differ from their own.		But why should fiction that tells stories about the gender-specific problems of 51% of the population -- their unique situations, trials, anger -- be less interesting to the "majority" of readers than stories about the oppression and anger of, say, scaly-skinned aliens living on a planet orbiting a distant star? If the story is well and compellingly told, it should gain -- not lose -- power by being relevant to the power distribution in the here and now. Such stories should be of no less inherent interest to male readers than that of any other group whose history and biology differ from their own.

	Power, we started out by saying, can mean many different things. Sometimes it means the power to just stop dismissing and look.		Power, we started out by saying, can mean many different things. Sometimes it means the power to just stop dismissing and look.

	In summary, then, the position of women in American science fiction can't be summarized in a sentence or two. It's as complex, ambiguous, hopeful, dismissed, and evolving as is women's position in the larger American society. And that's a good thing, since fiction -- including science fiction -- reflects reality back at us. That's its function. The reality may be deliberately distorted, heightened, or ''magicked,'' but in ways that tell us more about ourselves than we might otherwise know. As such, science fiction has a definite role to play in the ongoing women's movement -- and I think that it is fulfilling that role.		In summary, then, the position of women in American science fiction can't be summarized in a sentence or two. It's as complex, ambiguous, hopeful, dismissed, and evolving as is women's position in the larger American society. And that's a good thing, since fiction -- including science fiction -- reflects reality back at us. That's its function. The reality may be deliberately distorted, heightened, or "magicked," but in ways that tell us more about ourselves than we might otherwise know. As such, science fiction has a definite role to play in the ongoing women's movement -- and I think that it is fulfilling that role.

	Thank you.		Thank you.

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	Publik Nancy Kress: In which languages?		Publik Nancy Kress: In which languages?

	Publik Jan Wallenius: Finnish and ugric languages.		Publik Jan Wallenius: [[Finnish]] and ugric languages.

	Publik Nancy Kress: What a lovely idea.		Publik Nancy Kress: What a lovely idea.
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	Publik Jan Wallenius: This has actually been made in some science fiction novels.		Publik Jan Wallenius: This has actually been made in some science fiction novels.

	Publik Nancy Kress: I wish we had that advantage. Le Guin has said that when she had written The Left Hand of Darkness, she wished she had not used the male pronoun, he, for all the characters because it didn't give the kind of complexity of her hermaphrodites that she was hoping for. But she said to use she would have made them also specific, in fact even more specific, and that wouldn't have served either. And she doesn't like pronouns like ''hish'' which are kind of made up because she finds them dreary. But I think hish might have been the best possible choice so that we would have known that we were looking at something stranger than it seemed when all we had was the masculine pronouns.		Publik Nancy Kress: I wish we had that advantage. Le Guin has said that when she had written The Left Hand of Darkness, she wished she had not used the male pronoun, he, for all the characters because it didn't give the kind of complexity of her [[hermaphrodites]] that she was hoping for. But she said to use she would have made them also specific, in fact even more specific, and that wouldn't have served either. And she doesn't like pronouns like ''hish'' which are kind of made up because she finds them dreary. But I think hish might have been the best possible choice so that we would have known that we were looking at something stranger than it seemed when all we had was the masculine pronouns.

	Publik Anders Holmström: You commented on Friday by Heinlein and this ''I couldn't do anything so I laid back and enjoyed it.'' I think that his heroes usually have this very strong happy sense of gallows humour.		Publik Anders Holmström: You commented on Friday by Heinlein and this ''I couldn't do anything so I laid back and enjoyed it.'' I think that his heroes usually have this very strong happy sense of gallows humour.

	Publik Michael Petersén: ... awful, disgusting, it stinks of male chauvinism. It is a rather good book in other points but that scene stinks.		Publik Michael Petersén: ... awful, disgusting, it stinks of [[male chauvinism]]. It is a rather good book in other points but that scene stinks.

	Applause		Applause
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	Publik Nancy Kress: He could have done such a thing because Heinlein was never raped. Somebody back there.		Publik Nancy Kress: He could have done such a thing because Heinlein was never raped. Somebody back there.

	Publik Carina Björklind: In Swedish ''human'' is ''she.'' If you talk about humans it is she.		Publik Carina Björklind: In [[Swedish]] ''human'' is ''she.'' If you talk about humans it is she.

	Publik Nancy Kress: Really. Mary, we got the wrong language.		Publik Nancy Kress: Really. Mary, we got the wrong language.
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	Publik Carina Björklind: A translator might very easily populate a book with only men because the writer writes ''man'' and means human race but in Swedish it becomes ''he'' all the way. That is a very strange effect sometimes.		Publik Carina Björklind: A translator might very easily populate a book with only men because the writer writes ''man'' and means human race but in Swedish it becomes ''he'' all the way. That is a very strange effect sometimes.

	Publik Nancy Kress: My point about populating books only with men. There are books where this is certainly appropriate because they are historical. If you are writing a book about a platoon in World War II, moving across the European country on a dangerous mission and the platoon is made up entirely of males then this is appropriate. Those platoons were made up entirely of males. When you put that in a future that is supposedly growing directly out of our future, a near future, and you don't explain what happened to the women who are moving into the military, then it is not appropriate. If you want to put it in a very far future and give us another male dominated society, that can be appropriate too if it is set up in such a way that we see it is a male dominated society. But if it is just assumed that of course if there is anything exciting going on men are doing it, without an explanation or a context, then you are going to raise questions that are fair to ask in the same way you can raise questions about some of the 1950s science fiction that supposedly shows a future in which women are figuring out how the stove works and nothing else.		Publik Nancy Kress: My point about populating books only with men. There are books where this is certainly appropriate because they are historical. If you are writing a book about a platoon in World War II, moving across the European country on a dangerous mission and the platoon is made up entirely of males then this is appropriate. Those platoons were made up entirely of males. When you put that in a future that is supposedly growing directly out of our future, a near future, and you don't explain what happened to the women who are moving into the [[military]], then it is not appropriate. If you want to put it in a very far future and give us another male dominated society, that can be appropriate too if it is set up in such a way that we see it is a male dominated society. But if it is just assumed that of course if there is anything exciting going on men are doing it, without an explanation or a context, then you are going to raise questions that are fair to ask in the same way you can raise questions about some of the 1950s science fiction that supposedly shows a future in which women are [[figuring out how the stove works]] and nothing else.

	Publik Cecilia Henningsson: What I find irritating is when male adults are taken as a norm. Every person who doesn't have to be something else then a male adult for the sake of the plot is a male adult. And I think that applies to children as well.		Publik Cecilia Henningsson: What I find irritating is when male adults are taken as a norm. Every person who doesn't have to be something else then a male adult for the sake of the plot is a male adult. And I think that applies to children as well.
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	Publik Nancy Kress: Anybody else? Comments?		Publik Nancy Kress: Anybody else? Comments?

	Publik Peter Nordgren: One thing. You mentioned Laura Webster in Islands In the Net. One thing about Laura Webster is how unsympathetic that character is.		Publik Peter Nordgren: One thing. You mentioned [[Laura Webster]] in [[Islands In the Net]]. One thing about Laura Webster is how unsympathetic that character is.

	Publik Nancy Kress: Really. I have had people tell me that of both genders and I didn't find her that way.		Publik Nancy Kress: Really. I have had people tell me that of both genders and I didn't find her that way.