Romance of the Revolution (WisCon 31 panel) - Revision history

Lquilter: link

2007-06-02T03:00:09Z

link

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	* [http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602227.html Oyceter]		* [http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602227.html Oyceter]
	* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]		* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]
	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot		* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot (at coffee and ink)
	* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]		* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]
	* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/romance-of-revolution-panel-few-links.html		* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/romance-of-revolution-panel-few-links.html Timmi Duchamp] at Ambling Along the Aqueduct

	Timmi Duchamp] at Ambling Along the Aqueduct
	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html coffee and ink]

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==

Lquilter: adding

2007-06-02T02:59:00Z

adding

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	In authors ranging from Heinlein to Macleod, Spinrad to Cordwainer Smith, the revolution is glorified — sometimes a violent one, sometimes (but far more rarely) a peaceful one. How do we avoid making the same errors of glorifying violence and hero worship when coming at things from a revolutionary perspective in fiction? (Some people may not find these to be errors — they're welcome to come discuss that POV too.)		In authors ranging from Heinlein to Macleod, Spinrad to Cordwainer Smith, the revolution is glorified — sometimes a violent one, sometimes (but far more rarely) a peaceful one. How do we avoid making the same errors of glorifying violence and hero worship when coming at things from a revolutionary perspective in fiction? (Some people may not find these to be errors — they're welcome to come discuss that POV too.)

	M: Paul Kincaid, L. Timmel Duchamp, Laurie J. Marks, Chris Nakashima-Brown, Lyn Paleo		M: [[Paul Kincaid]], [[L. Timmel Duchamp]], [[Laurie J. Marks]], [[Chris Nakashima-Brown]], [[Lyn Paleo]]

	==Notes, reports, transcripts==		==Notes, reports, transcripts==
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	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot		* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot
	* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]		* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]
			* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/romance-of-revolution-panel-few-links.html

			Timmi Duchamp] at Ambling Along the Aqueduct
			* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html coffee and ink]

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==

Lquilter: /* Transcript */ links, tyops

2007-05-31T05:11:51Z

Transcript: links, tyops

Liz Henry: /* Transcript */

2007-05-31T05:10:51Z

Transcript

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	* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]		* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]
	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot		* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot
			* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==
	notes by [[Laura Quilter]]		notes by [[Laura Quilter]]

	: LJM Laurie J Marks (~~Scheduled~~, but ~~I don't think she~~ was ~~at the panel~~)		: LJM Laurie J Marks (Was scheduled for the panel, but was not there)
	: LTD L Timmel Duchamp		: LTD L Timmel Duchamp
	: PK Paul Kincaid		: PK Paul Kincaid

Liz Henry: /* Transcript */

2007-05-31T04:59:49Z

Transcript

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	* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]		* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]
	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot		* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot
	* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==
	notes by [[Laura Quilter]]		notes by [[Laura Quilter]]

	: LJM Laurie J Marks		: LJM Laurie J Marks (Scheduled, but I don't think she was at the panel)
	: LTD L Timmel Duchamp		: LTD L Timmel Duchamp
	: PK Paul Kincaid		: PK Paul Kincaid

Lquilter: /* Notes, reports, transcripts */ LJ

2007-05-31T04:59:49Z

Notes, reports, transcripts: LJ

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	* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]		* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]
	* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot		* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot
			* [http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/846046.html James Nicoll LJ]

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==

Lquilter: /* Transcript */ notes

2007-05-31T04:58:43Z

Transcript: notes

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	aud: french revolt regularly & will until they get it right. ... but revolutions do ~~effect~~ life. ~~people~~ get the right to vote, to own credit cards, to own property, etc. ...		aud: The french revolt regularly & will until they get it right. ... but revolutions do affect life. People get the right to vote, to own credit cards, to own property, etc. ...

	timmi: yes women couldn't buy a house in the 60s		timmi: yes women couldn't buy a house in the 60s
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	paul kincaid - there is the problem that anything that happens in africa tends to be less visible (here)		paul kincaid - there is the problem that anything that happens in africa tends to be less visible (here)

	aud (Rich Dutcher) - we have to stop being afraid of failure. scientists have learned this very well. appropros of your cmts on the sickness of the rule - the two miracles of 1989 fall of soviet union and south africa were because people who were running said we don't want to keep doing this. they said they didn't want to have kill millions of people to stay in power - they didn't want to give up power - but they didn't want to kill. ... the ~~failred~~ rev of 1989 peace in israel was b/c people decided they'd rather kill their leader than give it up. ... whole business in us is that our poverty levels & our oppressions are so less intense -what's our responsibility. the real answer is obviously that to gfigure out ways to geto our govt to leave them alone - so their animators who if given an opportunity - ... if you're higher up the oppression food chain get your people off their backs. one of the reasons we have peace marches in us demonstrating for people in dharfur.		aud (Rich Dutcher) - we have to stop being afraid of failure. scientists have learned this very well. appropros of your cmts on the sickness of the rule - the two miracles of 1989 fall of soviet union and south africa were because people who were running said we don't want to keep doing this. they said they didn't want to have kill millions of people to stay in power - they didn't want to give up power - but they didn't want to kill. ... the failed rev of 1989 peace in israel was b/c people decided they'd rather kill their leader than give it up. ... whole business in US is that our poverty levels & our oppressions are so less intense -what's our responsibility. the real answer is obviously that to gfigure out ways to geto our govt to leave them alone - so their animators who if given an opportunity - ... if you're higher up the oppression food chain get your people off their backs. one of the reasons we have peace marches in us demonstrating for people in dharfur.

	lp - well there's many ways - i would say that's one way richard. but the microloan project is truly radical & revolutionary to get lots of little bits of money into many hands.		lp - well there's many ways - i would say that's one way richard. but the microloan project is truly radical & revolutionary to get lots of little bits of money into many hands.

	richard - absolutely - many things to do. but if you're voting & looking for ~~poltiical~~ responsibility. alright bill clinton was really a severe ~~responsibility~~ in many ways but he won all his wars and didn't kill american soldiers doing it.		richard - absolutely - many things to do. but if you're voting & looking for political responsibility. alright bill clinton was really a severe disappointment in many ways but he won all his wars and didn't kill american soldiers doing it.

	LP - there's a website where any of us can donate small amts of money to microloan programs -		LP - there's a website where any of us can donate small amts of money to microloan programs -

Liz Henry: /* Notes, reports, transcripts */

2007-05-31T04:39:17Z

Notes, reports, transcripts

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	==Notes, reports, transcripts==		==Notes, reports, transcripts==
	* [http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602227.html Oyceter]		* [http://oyceter.livejournal.com/602227.html Oyceter]
			* [http://aqueductpress.blogspot.com/2007/05/post-wiscon-report.html L. Timmel Duchamp]
			* [http://coffeeandink.livejournal.com/703545.html More discussion] of Nakashima-Brown's comment on Pol Pot

	==Transcript==		==Transcript==

Lquilter: added tscpt

2007-05-31T04:26:09Z

added tscpt

Show changes

Lquilter: cat

2007-05-30T17:18:09Z

cat

New page

[[Romance of the Revolution (Wiscon 31 panel)|145 Romance of the Revolution]]

Reading, Viewing, and Critiquing SF&F•Assembly• Sunday, 1:00-2:15 p.m.

In authors ranging from Heinlein to Macleod, Spinrad to Cordwainer Smith, the revolution is glorified — sometimes a violent one, sometimes (but far more rarely) a peaceful one. How do we avoid making the same errors of glorifying violence and hero worship when coming at things from a revolutionary perspective in fiction? (Some people may not find these to be errors — they're welcome to come discuss that POV too.)

M: Paul Kincaid, L. Timmel Duchamp, Laurie J. Marks, Chris Nakashima-Brown, Lyn Paleo

[[Category:WisCon 31 panels]]

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	aud contd: part of a process and we have to go back and do more. the changes in my lifetime have been quite amazing.		aud contd: part of a process and we have to go back and do more. the changes in my lifetime have been quite amazing.

	aud (Pamela Taylor) - picking up on Chris' comments, on what you had to say is who is the revolution going to be against. i know a lot of people in the world are against the US. i know a lot of leftists are teaming up with islamists and i think it's a problem because i'm fighting against ...		aud ([[Pamela Taylor]]) - picking up on Chris' comments, on what you had to say is who is the revolution going to be against. i know a lot of people in the world are against the US. i know a lot of leftists are teaming up with islamists and i think it's a problem because i'm fighting against ...

	PNB - mediajammers, adbusters, the billboard liberation front. that's a bonified viable road forward trying to appropriate those images of capital that are infiltrating our heads and trying to turn them back around. you can imagine as you have this convergence of institutional media hollywood stuff fully distributed fully hackable media - interesting to see if some of that gets turned on its head.		PNB - mediajammers, adbusters, the billboard liberation front. that's a bonified viable road forward trying to appropriate those images of capital that are infiltrating our heads and trying to turn them back around. you can imagine as you have this convergence of institutional media hollywood stuff fully distributed fully hackable media - interesting to see if some of that gets turned on its head.

	PK - back to the idea of the islamic revolution as a brit i am disgusted with my govt not just becuase of what it's done in iraq and how it's kowtowed to - sigh - mr bush. but how that has led to ... people in ~~ritain~~ treating ... people who are either islamic or look islamic. and there is increasing police repression against large chunks of the population. and i suspect that you're probably finding the same things hapepning here? looks @ audience to nods. if we're talking about political power revolutions anyone who comes to power tends to then exercsise that power as strongly as they can ~~b/c~~ that's the way they seem to keep hold of the power ... and i think that's what's happening @ the moment and the results are frightening & are going to go on ~~behind~~ frightening for some time.		PK - back to the idea of the islamic revolution as a brit i am disgusted with my govt not just becuase of what it's done in iraq and how it's kowtowed to - sigh - mr bush. but how that has led to ... people in Britain treating ... people who are either islamic or look islamic. and there is increasing police repression against large chunks of the population. and i suspect that you're probably finding the same things hapepning here? (looks @ audience which nods.) if we're talking about political power revolutions anyone who comes to power tends to then exercsise that power as strongly as they can because that's the way they seem to keep hold of the power ... and i think that's what's happening at the moment and the results are frightening & are going to go on being frightening for some time.

	aud: i was wondering if you could talk about revolution in non-am non-european countries and how that works.		aud (F): i was wondering if you could talk about revolution in non-am non-european countries and how that works.

	chris - i like the pol pot revolution - scraping everything clean. kill all the people and start from scratch.		chris - i like the pol pot revolution - scraping everything clean. kill all the people and start from scratch.
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	lp - chiapas?		lp - chiapas?

	timmi - not just chiapas but oaxaca. the women are running things. the teachers started occupying govt buildings. women have a very feminist community. they had taken over most of govt bldgs. they took over radio 7 tv stations. and they were demanding ouster of the governor who was corrupt of course. and the US actually pushed them to use violence to bring it all to an end which they did but it's not over. it will just keep -- they're so well-organized. they know how to use the media. and they have artists involved - i mean the art that has come out is just ~~gorgeious~~.		timmi - not just chiapas but oaxaca. the women are running things. the teachers started occupying govt buildings. women have a very feminist community. they had taken over most of govt bldgs. they took over radio 7 tv stations. and they were demanding ouster of the governor who was corrupt of course. and the US actually pushed them to use violence to bring it all to an end which they did but it's not over. it will just keep -- they're so well-organized. they know how to use the media. and they have artists involved - i mean the art that has come out is just gorgeous.

	PK - commandante zero		PK - commandante zero
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	timmi - yes yes		timmi - yes yes

	LP - colleague of mine ... talked about revolution of eritrea - women fought alongside men no rifles etc no conditions & when it was over they wanted their share of power and they did a cultural change in that fashion. through a breakaway in one country ~~theyturned~~ some systems over in their own.		LP - colleague of mine ... talked about revolution of eritrea - women fought alongside men no rifles etc no conditions & when it was over they wanted their share of power and they did a cultural change in that fashion. through a breakaway in one country they turned some systems over in their own.

	timmi - but quite often women fight alonside the men and when they've won women are no longer in power.		timmi - but quite often women fight alonside the men and when they've won women are no longer in power.
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	lp - exactly and this was different		lp - exactly and this was different

	chris - i was in nicaragua in 1984 and women fought alonside the men in the jungles for 20 years following the ideals of sandino etc - and you go there and it was men throwing cocktail parties		chris - i was in nicaragua in 1984 and women fought alonside the men in the jungles for 20 years following the ideals of sandino etc - and you go there and it was men throwing cocktail parties (back to the same ole)

	LP - ... interesting ... sometimes dice go against you		LP - ... interesting ... sometimes dice go against you
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	LTD - postcolonial context is more complciated		LTD - postcolonial context is more complciated

	paul - i suppose i'm colonialist. ... ? is india. when britain subverted local indian rulers what we actually subverted was a very culturally divided land with a few people with immense amounts of power and a lot of power and a lot of people w/ immense amount of poverty and no consistent way of governing ... india was in a ~~messat~~ the time ... difficult because we wanted to trade. we took over not because we wanted to rule india but ~~b/c~~ we wanted ~~idiana~~ goods to trade and a market for british goods. what we actually did was ~~intro~~ a system of govt similar to our own b/c that's what colonial govts always did. and then we were astounded b/c the local people seemed to be quite good at this. that's not what you expect - you expect a little sinecure for the younger sons of landed gentry. but the administrators proved to be quite adept and wanted to do things for themselves. and then they had the most extraordinary revolution under the leadership of gandhi . ~~b/c~~ they had a ~~rev~~ where they provoked us to be violent while being nonviolent themselves which is not something that happens very often. we like to think of ourselves as a moral people & suddenly in a very morally uncomfortable position. and then the war came along & we had indian soldiers fighting the war alonside us & ~~proviing~~ at least as adept at ~~elast~~ as brave at least as conscientious as our own soldiers and it became ~~v v~~ difficult to resist calls for independence. but the only reason they actually got independence was ~~b/c~~ america ~~w/drew~~ their loans immed after the war & britain was actually broke and couldn't afford to carry on the war. ...if america hadn't withdrawn its loans we'd probably ~~stlil~~ be in there. ... revolutions don't always work that way. ... it's not the revolution that works, it's the weakness in the ruler that makes the difference.		paul - i suppose i'm colonialist. ... ? ... india. when britain subverted local indian rulers what we actually subverted was a very culturally divided land with a few people with immense amounts of power and a lot of power and a lot of people with immense amount of poverty and no consistent way of governing ... india was in a mess at the time ... difficult because we wanted to trade. we took over not because we wanted to rule india but because we wanted indian goods to trade and a market for british goods. what we actually did was introduce a system of govt similar to our own b/c that's what colonial govts always did. and then we were astounded b/c the local people seemed to be quite good at this. that's not what you expect - you expect a little sinecure for the younger sons of landed gentry. but the administrators proved to be quite adept and wanted to do things for themselves. and then they had the most extraordinary revolution under the leadership of gandhi. Because they had a revolution where they provoked us to be violent while being nonviolent themselves which is not something that happens very often. we like to think of ourselves as a moral people & suddenly we were in a very morally uncomfortable position. and then the war came along & we had indian soldiers fighting the war alonside us & proving at least as adept at least as brave at least as conscientious as our own soldiers and it became very very difficult to resist calls for independence. but the only reason they actually got independence was because america withdrew their loans immed after the war & britain was actually broke and couldn't afford to carry on the war. ...if america hadn't withdrawn its loans we'd probably still be in there, fighting. ... revolutions don't always work that way. ... it's not the revolution that works, it's the weakness in the ruler that makes the difference.

	aud ([[Margaret McBride]]) - want to come back to science fiction ... and talk about some of the authors that you think have done interesting things with cultural & political change or ones that you think haven't done a very good job.		aud ([[Margaret McBride]]) - want to come back to science fiction ... and talk about some of the authors that you think have done interesting things with cultural & political change or ones that you think haven't done a very good job.

	timmi - let's see, ~~suzy mckee charnas~~ - her one --		timmi - let's see, [[Suzy McKee Charnas]] - her one --

	laughter in audience b/c suzy just came in		laughter in audience b/c suzy just came in