Talk:Frank Black - Revision history

Ide Cyan: response

2007-02-14T20:45:54Z

response

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:45, 14 February 2007
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	* In discussion with sexist cop who can't imagine a woman investigating, Black argues; I think it happens a couple of times, once with an argument and once with an "I told you so" kind of moment. (But more polite.) To my mind, this is almost unique in TV. Women are sometimes shown confronting sexism but it almost always feels too pointed, too "I am a politically correct male director and I sympathize with my female characters." But the passing sexism that happens in commentary between men -- when do we see that? And when do we see a man critiquing or resisting it? (See X-Files Scully in the fat-sucking demon episode; she confronts sexist commentary of almost the exact same sort offered by the cop in this episode. This is the more ham-handed approach that I'm used to seeing in film/video.)		* In discussion with sexist cop who can't imagine a woman investigating, Black argues; I think it happens a couple of times, once with an argument and once with an "I told you so" kind of moment. (But more polite.) To my mind, this is almost unique in TV. Women are sometimes shown confronting sexism but it almost always feels too pointed, too "I am a politically correct male director and I sympathize with my female characters." But the passing sexism that happens in commentary between men -- when do we see that? And when do we see a man critiquing or resisting it? (See X-Files Scully in the fat-sucking demon episode; she confronts sexist commentary of almost the exact same sort offered by the cop in this episode. This is the more ham-handed approach that I'm used to seeing in film/video.)
	Will try to run down episodes & write something up on this, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 11:23, 14 February 2007 (PST)		Will try to run down episodes & write something up on this, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 11:23, 14 February 2007 (PST)


			Those are good points, & you should definitely add them to the main entry. The episodes in question are "[http://www.fourthhorseman.com/Abyss/Episodes/epi201.htm The Beginning and the End]" (for Peter's explanation about his three daughters), and "[http://www.fourthhorseman.com/Abyss/Episodes/epi111.htm Loin Like a Hunting Flame]" (for one instance of a sexist cop, at least). (I remember an instance of Lara Means, hypothetising about the reason a woman was imprisoned on a ship (in "[http://www.fourthhorseman.com/Abyss/Episodes/epi217.htm Siren]"), where she considers it might have been sexist scapegoating on the part of the captain.) Also, another factor in Jordan's importance is that it's stated a couple of times within the series that Catherine and Frank weren't supposed to be able to have children in the first place (the reason why is never stated) and that Jordan was a miracle for them. In "Paper Dove", Catherine's mother makes a reference to giving Jordan a little brother or sister, and backs off when Catherine doesn't say anything in reply. --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 12:45, 14 February 2007 (PST)

Lquilter: adding x-files ep for comparison

2007-02-14T19:24:56Z

adding x-files ep for comparison

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:24, 14 February 2007
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	One of the most interesting things about the Frank Black character is his interactions with sexist statements from other men, which I read as relatively feminist responses. The two examples I'm thinking of:		One of the most interesting things about the Frank Black character is his interactions with sexist statements from other men, which I read as relatively feminist responses. The two examples I'm thinking of:
	* In discussion with Peter when Peter talks about having a son, Black doesn't counter it, but he doesn't go along with it either. I want to see this again. My recollection is that there was a sort of absence of agreement which had its a significance; but maybe I'm reading too much into it. OTOH I would be very surprised if Black actually agreed with Peter on this, and could see him not going out & arguing in this moment when Peter is talking about his own motivations, his own thoughts -- good investigatorial technique. Maybe I'm being too apologist / thinking about it too much / over-analyzing; Peter's comment could have been either a throw-away not-thought-out example of sexism, or a deliberate portrayal of sexism; and either way, Frank Black's non-response could have been just that the writers didn't have anything to say. But they're very thoughtful throughout, so ...		* In discussion with Peter when Peter talks about having a son, Black doesn't counter it, but he doesn't go along with it either. I want to see this again. My recollection is that there was a sort of absence of agreement which had its a significance; but maybe I'm reading too much into it. OTOH I would be very surprised if Black actually agreed with Peter on this, and could see him not going out & arguing in this moment when Peter is talking about his own motivations, his own thoughts -- good investigatorial technique. Maybe I'm being too apologist / thinking about it too much / over-analyzing; Peter's comment could have been either a throw-away not-thought-out example of sexism, or a deliberate portrayal of sexism; and either way, Frank Black's non-response could have been just that the writers didn't have anything to say. But they're very thoughtful throughout, so ...
	* In discussion with sexist cop who can't imagine a woman investigating, Black argues; I think it happens a couple of times, once with an argument and once with an "I told you so" kind of moment. (But more polite.) To my mind, this is almost unique in TV. Women are sometimes shown confronting sexism but it almost always feels too pointed, too "I am a politically correct male director and I sympathize with my female characters." But the passing sexism that happens in commentary between men -- when do we see that? And when do we see a man critiquing or resisting it?		* In discussion with sexist cop who can't imagine a woman investigating, Black argues; I think it happens a couple of times, once with an argument and once with an "I told you so" kind of moment. (But more polite.) To my mind, this is almost unique in TV. Women are sometimes shown confronting sexism but it almost always feels too pointed, too "I am a politically correct male director and I sympathize with my female characters." But the passing sexism that happens in commentary between men -- when do we see that? And when do we see a man critiquing or resisting it? (See X-Files Scully in the fat-sucking demon episode; she confronts sexist commentary of almost the exact same sort offered by the cop in this episode. This is the more ham-handed approach that I'm used to seeing in film/video.)
	Will try to run down episodes & write something up on this, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 11:23, 14 February 2007 (PST)		Will try to run down episodes & write something up on this, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 11:23, 14 February 2007 (PST)

Lquilter: frank black

2007-02-14T19:23:54Z

frank black

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One of the most interesting things about the Frank Black character is his interactions with sexist statements from other men, which I read as relatively feminist responses. The two examples I'm thinking of:
* In discussion with Peter when Peter talks about having a son, Black doesn't counter it, but he doesn't go along with it either. I want to see this again. My recollection is that there was a sort of absence of agreement which had its a significance; but maybe I'm reading too much into it. OTOH I would be very surprised if Black actually agreed with Peter on this, and could see him not going out & arguing in this moment when Peter is talking about his own motivations, his own thoughts -- good investigatorial technique. Maybe I'm being too apologist / thinking about it too much / over-analyzing; Peter's comment could have been either a throw-away not-thought-out example of sexism, or a deliberate portrayal of sexism; and either way, Frank Black's non-response could have been just that the writers didn't have anything to say. But they're very thoughtful throughout, so ...
* In discussion with sexist cop who can't imagine a woman investigating, Black argues; I think it happens a couple of times, once with an argument and once with an "I told you so" kind of moment. (But more polite.) To my mind, this is almost unique in TV. Women are sometimes shown confronting sexism but it almost always feels too pointed, too "I am a politically correct male director and I sympathize with my female characters." But the passing sexism that happens in commentary between men -- when do we see that? And when do we see a man critiquing or resisting it?
Will try to run down episodes & write something up on this, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. --[[User:Lquilter|LQ]] 11:23, 14 February 2007 (PST)