Talk:List of notable female characters - Revision history

Lquilter: resp

2007-04-30T05:25:01Z

resp

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:25, 29 April 2007
Line 4:		Line 4:
	... for instance, i took out scully because even though there's a big fandom, and she's a highly recognizable character, and i love the x-files and i love the character scully and i think there was real character development in her and real feminist points in her character development, and also some critiques ... even so, i ended up thinking, well, i just added her because i really loved her, and in the pantheon of female characters she wasn't that notable. she was an improved version of susan calvin but not that much improved and she was just sort of a well-known character in a long slow transformation of a particular type of character -- not so much notable in and of herself in terms of influence on other characters. or at least that was my assessment and how i was thinking about things. i mostly haven't applied the criteria to the farscape/doctor who characters because i'm not familiar enough with the works to really assess; i feel a little skeptical because i haven't seen a ton of feminist analysis or shifting of characterization or anything else based on, say, zhaan. but obviously it's not just my criteria or ideas and there's lots of stuff i don't know. so i just tried to lay out criteria for what i was thinking to that other people could tinker with the criteria and also make their own assessments based on the (tinkered-with) criteria. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:34, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		... for instance, i took out scully because even though there's a big fandom, and she's a highly recognizable character, and i love the x-files and i love the character scully and i think there was real character development in her and real feminist points in her character development, and also some critiques ... even so, i ended up thinking, well, i just added her because i really loved her, and in the pantheon of female characters she wasn't that notable. she was an improved version of susan calvin but not that much improved and she was just sort of a well-known character in a long slow transformation of a particular type of character -- not so much notable in and of herself in terms of influence on other characters. or at least that was my assessment and how i was thinking about things. i mostly haven't applied the criteria to the farscape/doctor who characters because i'm not familiar enough with the works to really assess; i feel a little skeptical because i haven't seen a ton of feminist analysis or shifting of characterization or anything else based on, say, zhaan. but obviously it's not just my criteria or ideas and there's lots of stuff i don't know. so i just tried to lay out criteria for what i was thinking to that other people could tinker with the criteria and also make their own assessments based on the (tinkered-with) criteria. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:34, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

	: ... going by your criteria, it looks like you're recategorising this list as a list of '''influential''' female characters. That's... not the same thing as "notable", however you want to define notable. Which... going etymologically, would roughly mean "worth noting", "worth noticing". And that would make it a very good place to list characters that haven't necessarily had the most influence, that aren't necessarily the most eminent examples, but who are rare or unusual or ''interesting'' in some way.		: ... going by your criteria, it looks like you're recategorising this list as a list of '''influential''' female characters. That's... not the same thing as "notable", however you want to define notable. Which... going etymologically, would roughly mean "worth noting", "worth noticing". And that would make it a very good place to list characters that haven't necessarily had the most influence, that aren't necessarily the most eminent examples, but who are rare or unusual or ''interesting'' in some way.

	: And are you kidding me by asking if the "sf" criteria is important? What is this, a mainstream Wiki?!??! Maybe there are lots of lesbian characters whose coming outs are plot points in mainstream lesbian fiction, but there sure as hell aren't in SF! (And her coming out ''was related to the SFnal premise of the show'', which is the way the aliens have been affecting the Blundells' sexuality!)		: And are you kidding me by asking if the "sf" criteria is important? What is this, a mainstream Wiki?!??! Maybe there are lots of lesbian characters whose coming outs are plot points in mainstream lesbian fiction, but there sure as hell aren't in SF! (And her coming out ''was related to the SFnal premise of the show'', which is the way the aliens have been affecting the Blundells' sexuality!)

	: Beyond that -- how is this list ever going to survive if all the characters on it can disappear because ''one'' someone doesn't think they're worth noticing? Are you saying Scully isn't notable just because ''too many people already know about her''? --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 21:32, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		: Beyond that -- how is this list ever going to survive if all the characters on it can disappear because ''one'' someone doesn't think they're worth noticing? Are you saying Scully isn't notable just because ''too many people already know about her''? --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 21:32, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

			:: 1) Okay, influential versus notable is a useful distinction. i'm serious, add more criteria; i just tried to add criteria for how i was conceptualizing it, but we have to work together on it, so please add your critiera. ... i'll think more overnight about "notable" versus "worth noticing" -- i'm not quite sure those are the same but anyway, whether "worth noticing" goes here or not, it's also worth a unique list of its own, i think; i like the idea of a list of underrecognized characters of some sort.

			:: 2) ... actually i meant SF not in contrast with the broader world but SF the field in contrast with more specific works. ... anyway i think there are lots of gay coming out stuff. not as much in media works sure, but of all lesbian sf (all lesbian / queer fiction of any sort) it's almost all coming out or romance or both ... --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 22:25, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

			:: 3) i wasn't saying scully wasn't notable because too many people already know about her. i was just trying to give her and more particularly my thought process about her as an example of what i was thinking about as i developed the initial category then converted it to a list and then tried to define criteria. again, it's not a rule; it's an example of how i was thinking.

			:: 4) each one of us is "one" someone. obviously if we start to get counterproductive and undo what someone else did that's a problem and hopefully we can avoid wikipedia-style edit wars. ... are you saying you think i'm being counterproductive by taking something out? i think that weeding / editing down can also be as productive as gathering/adding. i was trying to define criteria that we'd never really done in first creating category and then character lists.

			:: going to read other comments now and go to sleep. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 22:25, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Ide Cyan: scratches head in bafflement

2007-04-30T04:32:04Z

*scratches head in bafflement*

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:32, 29 April 2007
Line 3:		Line 3:
	: i added all the "notability" kinds of criteria i could come up with. she didn't seem that notable to me. notability is whatever we make of it, of course, and you should add some criteria and/or criticize or discuss the criteria i posted. like maybe you don't like the "SF" criteria and think notability just means notability for one show or work for instance -- that was one i pondered for a while but i put it in because i eventually concluded that was sort of what i was thinking about when i thought "notable female character". do feel free to work on the definition too. or on the explanation of isabelle blundell, because "lesbian teenager" doesn't really mean notable to me. and even "lesbian teenager whose coming out was a plot point" pretty much describes 90% of coming out stories. but that's what means notable to me, so obviously you should also engage and talk about what feels notable to you. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:27, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		: i added all the "notability" kinds of criteria i could come up with. she didn't seem that notable to me. notability is whatever we make of it, of course, and you should add some criteria and/or criticize or discuss the criteria i posted. like maybe you don't like the "SF" criteria and think notability just means notability for one show or work for instance -- that was one i pondered for a while but i put it in because i eventually concluded that was sort of what i was thinking about when i thought "notable female character". do feel free to work on the definition too. or on the explanation of isabelle blundell, because "lesbian teenager" doesn't really mean notable to me. and even "lesbian teenager whose coming out was a plot point" pretty much describes 90% of coming out stories. but that's what means notable to me, so obviously you should also engage and talk about what feels notable to you. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:27, 29 April 2007 (PDT)
	... for instance, i took out scully because even though there's a big fandom, and she's a highly recognizable character, and i love the x-files and i love the character scully and i think there was real character development in her and real feminist points in her character development, and also some critiques ... even so, i ended up thinking, well, i just added her because i really loved her, and in the pantheon of female characters she wasn't that notable. she was an improved version of susan calvin but not that much improved and she was just sort of a well-known character in a long slow transformation of a particular type of character -- not so much notable in and of herself in terms of influence on other characters. or at least that was my assessment and how i was thinking about things. i mostly haven't applied the criteria to the farscape/doctor who characters because i'm not familiar enough with the works to really assess; i feel a little skeptical because i haven't seen a ton of feminist analysis or shifting of characterization or anything else based on, say, zhaan. but obviously it's not just my criteria or ideas and there's lots of stuff i don't know. so i just tried to lay out criteria for what i was thinking to that other people could tinker with the criteria and also make their own assessments based on the (tinkered-with) criteria. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:34, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		... for instance, i took out scully because even though there's a big fandom, and she's a highly recognizable character, and i love the x-files and i love the character scully and i think there was real character development in her and real feminist points in her character development, and also some critiques ... even so, i ended up thinking, well, i just added her because i really loved her, and in the pantheon of female characters she wasn't that notable. she was an improved version of susan calvin but not that much improved and she was just sort of a well-known character in a long slow transformation of a particular type of character -- not so much notable in and of herself in terms of influence on other characters. or at least that was my assessment and how i was thinking about things. i mostly haven't applied the criteria to the farscape/doctor who characters because i'm not familiar enough with the works to really assess; i feel a little skeptical because i haven't seen a ton of feminist analysis or shifting of characterization or anything else based on, say, zhaan. but obviously it's not just my criteria or ideas and there's lots of stuff i don't know. so i just tried to lay out criteria for what i was thinking to that other people could tinker with the criteria and also make their own assessments based on the (tinkered-with) criteria. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:34, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

			: ... going by your criteria, it looks like you're recategorising this list as a list of '''influential''' female characters. That's... not the same thing as "notable", however you want to define notable. Which... going etymologically, would roughly mean "worth noting", "worth noticing". And that would make it a very good place to list characters that haven't necessarily had the most influence, that aren't necessarily the most eminent examples, but who are rare or unusual or ''interesting'' in some way.

			: And are you kidding me by asking if the "sf" criteria is important? What is this, a mainstream Wiki?!??! Maybe there are lots of lesbian characters whose coming outs are plot points in mainstream lesbian fiction, but there sure as hell aren't in SF! (And her coming out ''was related to the SFnal premise of the show'', which is the way the aliens have been affecting the Blundells' sexuality!)

			: Beyond that -- how is this list ever going to survive if all the characters on it can disappear because ''one'' someone doesn't think they're worth noticing? Are you saying Scully isn't notable just because ''too many people already know about her''? --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 21:32, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Lquilter: scully etc

2007-04-30T02:34:31Z

scully etc

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:34, 29 April 2007
Line 2:		Line 2:

	: i added all the "notability" kinds of criteria i could come up with. she didn't seem that notable to me. notability is whatever we make of it, of course, and you should add some criteria and/or criticize or discuss the criteria i posted. like maybe you don't like the "SF" criteria and think notability just means notability for one show or work for instance -- that was one i pondered for a while but i put it in because i eventually concluded that was sort of what i was thinking about when i thought "notable female character". do feel free to work on the definition too. or on the explanation of isabelle blundell, because "lesbian teenager" doesn't really mean notable to me. and even "lesbian teenager whose coming out was a plot point" pretty much describes 90% of coming out stories. but that's what means notable to me, so obviously you should also engage and talk about what feels notable to you. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:27, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		: i added all the "notability" kinds of criteria i could come up with. she didn't seem that notable to me. notability is whatever we make of it, of course, and you should add some criteria and/or criticize or discuss the criteria i posted. like maybe you don't like the "SF" criteria and think notability just means notability for one show or work for instance -- that was one i pondered for a while but i put it in because i eventually concluded that was sort of what i was thinking about when i thought "notable female character". do feel free to work on the definition too. or on the explanation of isabelle blundell, because "lesbian teenager" doesn't really mean notable to me. and even "lesbian teenager whose coming out was a plot point" pretty much describes 90% of coming out stories. but that's what means notable to me, so obviously you should also engage and talk about what feels notable to you. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:27, 29 April 2007 (PDT)
			... for instance, i took out scully because even though there's a big fandom, and she's a highly recognizable character, and i love the x-files and i love the character scully and i think there was real character development in her and real feminist points in her character development, and also some critiques ... even so, i ended up thinking, well, i just added her because i really loved her, and in the pantheon of female characters she wasn't that notable. she was an improved version of susan calvin but not that much improved and she was just sort of a well-known character in a long slow transformation of a particular type of character -- not so much notable in and of herself in terms of influence on other characters. or at least that was my assessment and how i was thinking about things. i mostly haven't applied the criteria to the farscape/doctor who characters because i'm not familiar enough with the works to really assess; i feel a little skeptical because i haven't seen a ton of feminist analysis or shifting of characterization or anything else based on, say, zhaan. but obviously it's not just my criteria or ideas and there's lots of stuff i don't know. so i just tried to lay out criteria for what i was thinking to that other people could tinker with the criteria and also make their own assessments based on the (tinkered-with) criteria. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:34, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Lquilter: definitions of Sf

2007-04-30T02:27:05Z

definitions of Sf

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:27, 29 April 2007
Line 1:		Line 1:
	''[[Alienated (TV series)\|Alienated]]'' lasted for TWO seasons, hello! And why should the duration of a series disqualify a character?! --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 12:48, 29 April 2007 (PDT)		''[[Alienated (TV series)\|Alienated]]'' lasted for TWO seasons, hello! And why should the duration of a series disqualify a character?! --[[User:Ide Cyan\|Ide Cyan]] 12:48, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

			: i added all the "notability" kinds of criteria i could come up with. she didn't seem that notable to me. notability is whatever we make of it, of course, and you should add some criteria and/or criticize or discuss the criteria i posted. like maybe you don't like the "SF" criteria and think notability just means notability for one show or work for instance -- that was one i pondered for a while but i put it in because i eventually concluded that was sort of what i was thinking about when i thought "notable female character". do feel free to work on the definition too. or on the explanation of isabelle blundell, because "lesbian teenager" doesn't really mean notable to me. and even "lesbian teenager whose coming out was a plot point" pretty much describes 90% of coming out stories. but that's what means notable to me, so obviously you should also engage and talk about what feels notable to you. --[[User:Lquilter\|LQ]] 19:27, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Ide Cyan: Alienated!!

2007-04-29T19:48:25Z

Alienated!!

New page

''[[Alienated (TV series)|Alienated]]'' lasted for TWO seasons, hello! And why should the duration of a series disqualify a character?! --[[User:Ide Cyan|Ide Cyan]] 12:48, 29 April 2007 (PDT)

Talk:List of notable female characters - Revision history

Lquilter: resp

Ide Cyan: *scratches head in bafflement*

Lquilter: scully etc

Lquilter: definitions of Sf

Ide Cyan: Alienated!!

Ide Cyan: scratches head in bafflement