Uncomfortable Politics in Feminist Writing (WisCon 30 Panel) - Revision history

Lquilter: cat

2007-07-30T18:10:15Z

cat

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:10, 30 July 2007
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	==Categories/Tags==		==Categories/Tags==
	[[category:WisCon 30 ~~Panels~~]]		[[category:WisCon 30 panels]]

Lquilter: /* Works Discussed */ de-linking a-team and linking fordo & Sam

2007-02-17T23:23:40Z

Works Discussed: de-linking a-team and linking fordo & Sam

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:23, 17 February 2007
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	==Works Discussed==		==Works Discussed==

	* Frodo & Sam's relationship		* [[Frodo & Sam's relationship]]
	* mommy bloggers		* mommy bloggers
	* "[[28 Days Later (film)\|28 Days Later]]"		* "[[28 Days Later (film)\|28 Days Later]]"
	* "[[The A-Team ~~(TV series)\|The A-Team]]~~"		* "The A-Team"
	* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)\|Mysterious Skin]]"		* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)\|Mysterious Skin]]"
	* "[[Silence of the Lambs (film)\|Silence of the Lambs]]"		* "[[Silence of the Lambs (film)\|Silence of the Lambs]]"

Ide Cyan: disambig. link

2007-02-14T06:13:24Z

disambig. link

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	==Panel Description==		==Panel Description==

	An exploration of the feminist politics of making the reader uncomfortable. We'll use obscenity, violence, violation of the body's boundaries, and dystopia as tools to explore feminist thought. Examples of books are the [[Kushiel series]], ''[[Walk to the End of the World]]'', ''[[Touched by Venom]]'', and ''[[Air]]''. (Or [[Monique Wittig]]'s ''[[The Lesbian Body]]'' in which she describes mutual anatomical dissection.) For example, mainstream non-feminist movies and books often have rape scenes that are highly eroticized from the perpetrator's point of view. When these violations of body-boundaries are described from the point of view of the violated, it's obscene, it makes readers uncomfortable, and that's worth discussing.		An exploration of the feminist politics of making the reader uncomfortable. We'll use obscenity, violence, violation of the body's boundaries, and dystopia as tools to explore feminist thought. Examples of books are the [[Kushiel series]], ''[[Walk to the End of the World]]'', ''[[Touched by Venom]]'', and ''[[Air (novel)\|Air]]''. (Or [[Monique Wittig]]'s ''[[The Lesbian Body]]'' in which she describes mutual anatomical dissection.) For example, mainstream non-feminist movies and books often have rape scenes that are highly eroticized from the perpetrator's point of view. When these violations of body-boundaries are described from the point of view of the violated, it's obscene, it makes readers uncomfortable, and that's worth discussing.

	==Panelists==		==Panelists==

Ide Cyan: disambig. link

2007-02-11T03:58:49Z

disambig. link

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:58, 10 February 2007
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	* [[Elizabeth A. Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]		* [[Elizabeth A. Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]
	* [[Maureen McHugh]] [[Mission Child]]		* [[Maureen McHugh]] [[Mission Child]]
	* [[Tricia Sullivan]] ''[[Maul]]''		* [[Tricia Sullivan]] ''[[Maul (novel)\|Maul]]''

	==Transcript/Notes==		==Transcript/Notes==
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	mod: Now if we can talk about maybe what got you interested in this panel or what thoughts triggered - what made people uncomfortable.		mod: Now if we can talk about maybe what got you interested in this panel or what thoughts triggered - what made people uncomfortable.

	GR: the awards last year for the year before, [[Tricia Sullivan]]'s book, a book called ''[[Maul]]'', set in a shopping mall but spelled maul, and it's an extremely violent book, and very very uncomfortable, starts out with a young, one wants to say totally consumer-oriented, girl masturbating w/ her gun, ... an incredibly violent book and made me feel incredibly uncomfortable because I didn't know the extent to which I was invited to take it seriously & the extent to which I was invited to enjoy it b/c it was unenjoyable ... women shooting women and lots of innocent bystanders and I just didn't get it ... then cuts to a formally ... book ... brilliant ...a man in a cage ... then the two stories converge in a completely ... but the first third of the book ... thought if I can stick with it I will understand it ...		GR: the awards last year for the year before, [[Tricia Sullivan]]'s book, a book called ''[[Maul (novel)\|Maul]]'', set in a shopping mall but spelled maul, and it's an extremely violent book, and very very uncomfortable, starts out with a young, one wants to say totally consumer-oriented, girl masturbating w/ her gun, ... an incredibly violent book and made me feel incredibly uncomfortable because I didn't know the extent to which I was invited to take it seriously & the extent to which I was invited to enjoy it b/c it was unenjoyable ... women shooting women and lots of innocent bystanders and I just didn't get it ... then cuts to a formally ... book ... brilliant ...a man in a cage ... then the two stories converge in a completely ... but the first third of the book ... thought if I can stick with it I will understand it ...

	GR: stuck with it		GR: stuck with it
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	katie: I'm sorry there's a couple of people who had hands up before you.		katie: I'm sorry there's a couple of people who had hands up before you.

	GR: I responded to paul a lot more uncomfortable about mainstream novels because they tend to pin me down much more horribly in here and now. terribly engineered choice in real world. ... [[Maul]] really disturbed me partly because i couldn't account for it.		GR: I responded to paul a lot more uncomfortable about mainstream novels because they tend to pin me down much more horribly in here and now. terribly engineered choice in real world. ... [[Maul (novel)\|Maul]] really disturbed me partly because i couldn't account for it.

	lh: lori selke told me to read it so you should talk to her b/c she loved it passionately.		lh: lori selke told me to read it so you should talk to her b/c she loved it passionately.
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	aud [[Sylvia Kelso]]: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.		aud [[Sylvia Kelso]]: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.

	mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and		mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul (novel)\|Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and

	mod: see what they're doing		mod: see what they're doing

162.83.198.150 at 01:42, 21 June 2006

2006-06-21T01:42:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:42, 20 June 2006
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	==Transcript/Notes==		==Transcript/Notes==

			''Original transcript by Laura Quilter ... please add in, fill in, correct, add comments as needed''

	Geoff Ryman - (... initial comments missed ... ) when characters are weak - that's the kind of discomfort that's really useful		Geoff Ryman - (... initial comments missed ... ) when characters are weak - that's the kind of discomfort that's really useful

Lquilter at 18:26, 14 June 2006

2006-06-14T18:26:13Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:26, 14 June 2006
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	[[Cassandra Elinor Amesley]] (moderator), [[Paula L. Fleming]], [[Liz Henry]], [[Tea Hvala]] (not present), [[Geoff Ryman]]		[[Cassandra Elinor Amesley]] (moderator), [[Paula L. Fleming]], [[Liz Henry]], [[Tea Hvala]] (not present), [[Geoff Ryman]]

			aud = unidentified speaker from the audience. (If you were the "aud" who spoke, please add a name wherever appropriate!)

	==Works Discussed==		==Works Discussed==
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	aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?		aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?

	Sylvia Kelso: as a reader i'm making an agreement with author that i'm here to learn or just be entertained. a book that made me horribly uncomfortable in a way that i've never gotten over because i think it broke the compact i don't know if you remember an english author called [[Mary Gentle]] who wrote [[Golden Witchbreed]] - the ending of [[Ancient Light]] took the entire two books and just took your legs out from under you, i don't want to spoil it too bad if you've never read it, basically she killed her world off; years later it's physically upsetting to me that the characters that i came to love and the planet ... and it broke the compact but as i get older and ... ultimately out on the limb can you trust me ...		aud [[Sylvia Kelso]]: as a reader i'm making an agreement with author that i'm here to learn or just be entertained. a book that made me horribly uncomfortable in a way that i've never gotten over because i think it broke the compact i don't know if you remember an english author called [[Mary Gentle]] who wrote [[Golden Witchbreed]] - the ending of [[Ancient Light]] took the entire two books and just took your legs out from under you, i don't want to spoil it too bad if you've never read it, basically she killed her world off; years later it's physically upsetting to me that the characters that i came to love and the planet ... and it broke the compact but as i get older and ... ultimately out on the limb can you trust me ...

	aud: [[Ancient Light]] is one of those amazing books ... the thing that was so traumatic about is that it was a [[post-colonial]] novel ... destruction is brought on by outsiders who come into this world. at the end of it all the people on the world you've come to love just get killed ...		aud: [[Ancient Light]] is one of those amazing books ... the thing that was so traumatic about is that it was a [[post-colonial]] novel ... destruction is brought on by outsiders who come into this world. at the end of it all the people on the world you've come to love just get killed ...
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	GW phenomenally well-written		GW phenomenally well-written

	Sylvia Kelso: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.		aud [[Sylvia Kelso]]: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.

	mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and		mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and

Liz Henry: /* Transcript/Notes */

2006-06-14T18:05:56Z

Transcript/Notes

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:05, 14 June 2006
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	aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?		aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?

	~~aud~~: as a reader i'm making an agreement with author that i'm here to learn or just be entertained. a book that made me horribly uncomfortable in a way that i've never gotten over because i think it broke the compact i don't know if you remember an english author called [[Mary Gentle]] who wrote [[Golden Witchbreed]] - the ending of [[Ancient Light]] took the entire two books and just took your legs out from under you, i don't want to spoil it too bad if you've never read it, basically she killed her world off; years later it's physically upsetting to me that the characters that i came to love and the planet ... and it broke the compact but as i get older and ... ultimately out on the limb can you trust me ...		Sylvia Kelso: as a reader i'm making an agreement with author that i'm here to learn or just be entertained. a book that made me horribly uncomfortable in a way that i've never gotten over because i think it broke the compact i don't know if you remember an english author called [[Mary Gentle]] who wrote [[Golden Witchbreed]] - the ending of [[Ancient Light]] took the entire two books and just took your legs out from under you, i don't want to spoil it too bad if you've never read it, basically she killed her world off; years later it's physically upsetting to me that the characters that i came to love and the planet ... and it broke the compact but as i get older and ... ultimately out on the limb can you trust me ...

	aud: [[Ancient Light]] is one of those amazing books ... the thing that was so traumatic about is that it was a [[post-colonial]] novel ... destruction is brought on by outsiders who come into this world. at the end of it all the people on the world you've come to love just get killed ...		aud: [[Ancient Light]] is one of those amazing books ... the thing that was so traumatic about is that it was a [[post-colonial]] novel ... destruction is brought on by outsiders who come into this world. at the end of it all the people on the world you've come to love just get killed ...
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	GW phenomenally well-written		GW phenomenally well-written

	~~aud~~: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.		Sylvia Kelso: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.

	mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and		mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and

Ide Cyan: corrected a few titles and names

2006-06-14T17:14:23Z

corrected a few titles and names

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:14, 14 June 2006
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	* Frodo & Sam's relationship		* Frodo & Sam's relationship
	* mommy bloggers		* mommy bloggers
	* "[[28 Days (film)\|28 Days]]"		* "[[28 Days Later (film)\|28 Days Later]]"
	* "[[The A-Team (TV series)\|The A-Team]]"		* "[[The A-Team (TV series)\|The A-Team]]"
	* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)\|Mysterious Skin]]"		* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)\|Mysterious Skin]]"
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	* [[Joe Haldeman]]'s [[Camouflage (novel)\|Camouflage]]		* [[Joe Haldeman]]'s [[Camouflage (novel)\|Camouflage]]
	* [[Robert A. Heinlein]] [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]]		* [[Robert A. Heinlein]] [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]]
	* [[Elizabeth Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]		* [[Elizabeth A. Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]
	* [[Maureen McHugh]] [[Mission Child]]		* [[Maureen McHugh]] [[Mission Child]]
	* [[Tricia Sullivan]] ''[[Maul]]''		* [[Tricia Sullivan]] ''[[Maul]]''
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	pf: a novel that disturbed me greatly was [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]. Absolutely very disturbing exploration of power dynamics on various levels.		pf: a novel that disturbed me greatly was [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]. Absolutely very disturbing exploration of power dynamics on various levels.

	aud: speaking of things that make people uncomfortable i remember being in movie theater watching "[[28 Days (film)\|28 Days]]~~" later~~ a fully naked man in hospital with full frontal nudity ... audience with nervous titters & palpable unrest. i wondered about it - obviously - just grow up people are uncomfortable about this but listening to panel i'm trying to unpack who and why and obviously elements about het women being homophobic but also i wonder about het women in movie theater being forced to confront male sexual organs. but another dimension i also wonder about in our society the nude male body, the male penis can make people nervous.		aud: speaking of things that make people uncomfortable i remember being in movie theater watching ''[[28 Days Later (film)\|28 Days Later]]'' a fully naked man in hospital with full frontal nudity ... audience with nervous titters & palpable unrest. i wondered about it - obviously - just grow up people are uncomfortable about this but listening to panel i'm trying to unpack who and why and obviously elements about het women being homophobic but also i wonder about het women in movie theater being forced to confront male sexual organs. but another dimension i also wonder about in our society the nude male body, the male penis can make people nervous.

	lh: the female penis can make people nervous too		lh: the female penis can make people nervous too
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	GW phenomenally well-written		GW phenomenally well-written

	aud: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.		aud: novel extraordinarily well written satisfying in its denouement but character ... made me uncomfortable in ways i did not find productive - is that the term we've been using? - [[The Sardonnyx Net]] by [[Elizabeth A. Lynn\|Elizabeth Lynn]] - there's a character in there who is a sadist; he derives great pleasure from causing pain to people for political purposes; he's foiled in part by his sister who's also in a power regime. the novel is well constructed. she has i think accurately captured the psychology of the guy. but i don't know that i would want to read that novel again and experience through his eyes the pleasure he got from the actions he took.

	mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and		mod: reminds me of - i was influenced by [[John Gardner]] on moral fiction. i was academically trained writer - in all these writers' workshops. most of the people in these workshops were outraged at the concept that you're accountable for your production. the idea was pure text. art and artist sinteract and produce an ideal work and it has nothing to do with expect - audience should not be involved except afterwords - result is that some people seem to me to write into the universe really negative things - not what you're describing about not getting it in the [[Maul]] - you might be able to trust them and
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	mod: and it's not true - with exception of entropy which will get us all one day		mod: and it's not true - with exception of entropy which will get us all one day

	aud: i've been distrurbed ever since panel about [[Why Women Write About Gay Men (WisCon 30 Panel)\|women writing about gay men]]. rape is eroticized. we've come so far since [[Susan ~~Brown-Miller~~]]. i didn't know what [[slash]] was or [[yaoi\|japanese thing]] was ...		aud: i've been distrurbed ever since panel about [[Why Women Write About Gay Men (WisCon 30 Panel)\|women writing about gay men]]. rape is eroticized. we've come so far since [[Susan Brownmiller]]. i didn't know what [[slash]] was or [[yaoi\|japanese thing]] was ...

	mod: come [[Kissing Harry Potter (WisCon 30 Panel)\|tomorrow at 10]] when i actually talk about slash. it's not that all slash is ritual rape or bondage and other eroticization of volence. serious bondage and rape and murder as part of the process. but there is a significant body of work that does that.		mod: come [[Kissing Harry Potter (WisCon 30 Panel)\|tomorrow at 10]] when i actually talk about slash. it's not that all slash is ritual rape or bondage and other eroticization of volence. serious bondage and rape and murder as part of the process. but there is a significant body of work that does that.
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	lh: very interesting that slash that fanfic labels its stories thusly so that you're warned. so this story is noncon (nonconsensual), romance, chan, etc. darkfic. people labeling because they know it might be wrong ...		lh: very interesting that slash that fanfic labels its stories thusly so that you're warned. so this story is noncon (nonconsensual), romance, chan, etc. darkfic. people labeling because they know it might be wrong ...

	mod: they ~~killl~~ off women too.		mod: they kill off women too.

	... mod to bring it back to discomfort liz's point is really good to lessen the discomfort they put it all out there but they warn you in advance. the belief is that your accountability is just to warn somebody ... no accountability for creating a universe where rape is a first step on the way to a relationship.		... mod to bring it back to discomfort liz's point is really good to lessen the discomfort they put it all out there but they warn you in advance. the belief is that your accountability is just to warn somebody ... no accountability for creating a universe where rape is a first step on the way to a relationship.

128.122.73.84: /* Transcript/Notes */

2006-06-14T16:53:52Z

Transcript/Notes

128.122.73.84: /* Works Discussed */

2006-06-14T16:52:22Z

Works Discussed

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:52, 14 June 2006
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	==Works Discussed==		==Works Discussed==

	* "[[Silence of the Lambs]]"
	* "[[The A-Team (TV series)]]"
	* Frodo & Sam's relationship		* Frodo & Sam's relationship
	* mommy bloggers		* mommy bloggers
	* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)]]"		* "[[28 Days (film)\|28 Days]]"
	* [[~~Camouflage~~]]		* "[[The A-Team (TV series)\|The A-Team]]"
			* [[Gregg Araki]]'s "[[Mysterious Skin (film)\|Mysterious Skin]]"
			* "[[Silence of the Lambs (film)\|Silence of the Lambs]]"
	* [[Octavia Butler]]'s [[Xenogenesis Trilogy]]		* [[Octavia Butler]]'s [[Xenogenesis Trilogy]]
	* [[Jacqueline Carey]]'s [[Kushiel's Dart]], [[Banewreaker]] and [[Godslayer]]		* [[Jacqueline Carey]]'s [[Kushiel's Dart]], [[Banewreaker]] and [[Godslayer]]
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	* [[Mary Gentle]]'s [[Golden Witchbreed]] and [[Ancient Light]]		* [[Mary Gentle]]'s [[Golden Witchbreed]] and [[Ancient Light]]
	* [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]		* [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]
			* [[Joe Haldeman]]'s [[Camouflage (novel)\|Camouflage]]
	* [[Robert A. Heinlein]] [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]]		* [[Robert A. Heinlein]] [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]]
	* [[Elizabeth Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]		* [[Elizabeth Lynn]]'s [[The Sardonnyx Net]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:53, 14 June 2006
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	mod: it's tempting to go into female gaze / male gaze but i'm going to push that to production. i picked homosexuality ... because it's one close to my ehart and i have had various students where i showed movies like my beautiful alundrette because in this case they can't deal with male on male romance. ... male on female romance earlier they felt apparently quite comfortable watching. so it becomes unsatisfactory to make them too uncomfortable because they'll shut down. and i'm wondering if you see a place where you negotiate choices between not too uncomfortable but beyond the boundaries of the comfort zone so they start noticing that in fact they have a comfort zone which is the first step.		mod: it's tempting to go into female gaze / male gaze but i'm going to push that to production. i picked homosexuality ... because it's one close to my ehart and i have had various students where i showed movies like my beautiful alundrette because in this case they can't deal with male on male romance. ... male on female romance earlier they felt apparently quite comfortable watching. so it becomes unsatisfactory to make them too uncomfortable because they'll shut down. and i'm wondering if you see a place where you negotiate choices between not too uncomfortable but beyond the boundaries of the comfort zone so they start noticing that in fact they have a comfort zone which is the first step.

	pf: i think that is so hard because i think you face that ethical dilemma - you see it when people try to make war movies - i see it when i try to portray any kind of act ov violence sexual or other in a story - on the one hand if i sanitize it i'm not doing it justice, like [[The A-Team]] -- bullets flying everywhere they don't fall down or they fall down but you don't see blood. I hate that fake violence, that's wrong, there needs to be real violence, it needs to be awful, it needs to have real consequences. But if you go too far into it it runs the risk of being gratuitous or runs the risk of being the 17 year old ... barbed wire ... cigarettes ground ... and that's not right either. and i think every scene like that, use your own best ethics to try to get the telling points across ... really hard ... you may never get it right for every reader.		pf: i think that is so hard because i think you face that ethical dilemma - you see it when people try to make war movies - i see it when i try to portray any kind of act ov violence sexual or other in a story - on the one hand if i sanitize it i'm not doing it justice, like [[The A-Team (TV series)\|The A-Team]] -- bullets flying everywhere they don't fall down or they fall down but you don't see blood. I hate that fake violence, that's wrong, there needs to be real violence, it needs to be awful, it needs to have real consequences. But if you go too far into it it runs the risk of being gratuitous or runs the risk of being the 17 year old ... barbed wire ... cigarettes ground ... and that's not right either. and i think every scene like that, use your own best ethics to try to get the telling points across ... really hard ... you may never get it right for every reader.

	GR: ... when i'm writing stuff, i'm ... am i being prurient, because i'm a human being too ... pretty warped... so all i can do is test-drive: "is this prurient", if i think there is, that's when i think this is the wrong kind of discomfort. so similarly i can only police my own reactions. If i think i'm really getting off on the violence then i think that's the wrong kind of discomfor then I shut down. The embarrassment I feel with the 17 year old - then I feel being asked to identify - that's prurient.		GR: ... when i'm writing stuff, i'm ... am i being prurient, because i'm a human being too ... pretty warped... so all i can do is test-drive: "is this prurient", if i think there is, that's when i think this is the wrong kind of discomfort. so similarly i can only police my own reactions. If i think i'm really getting off on the violence then i think that's the wrong kind of discomfor then I shut down. The embarrassment I feel with the 17 year old - then I feel being asked to identify - that's prurient.
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	mod: [[Robert A. Heinlein\|Heinlein]]'s [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress\|Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]] which I read in high school and I'd never thought of world in a political way before Heinlein and he makes some arguments which are shocking like individuals should have same right to execute as governments ... even though I now recognize it as more fascist than anarchist.		mod: [[Robert A. Heinlein\|Heinlein]]'s [[The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress\|Moon Is a Harsh Mistress]] which I read in high school and I'd never thought of world in a political way before Heinlein and he makes some arguments which are shocking like individuals should have same right to execute as governments ... even though I now recognize it as more fascist than anarchist.

	pf: trying to narrow it down to one example. one of the things i love about this genre is it so often makes me uncomfortable at least temporarily until i ~~readajust~~ my parameters ... i'll raise an example, mentioned in the program ... [[Kushiel's Dart]] series a little bit at least to start off with. and then you get used to it, the point of view of this particular character ... and then my parameter is shifted a little bit.		pf: trying to narrow it down to one example. one of the things i love about this genre is it so often makes me uncomfortable at least temporarily until i readjust my parameters ... i'll raise an example, mentioned in the program ... [[Kushiel's Dart]] series a little bit at least to start off with. and then you get used to it, the point of view of this particular character ... and then my parameter is shifted a little bit.

	lh: of course i have a list like i'm sure everyone ... but i would mention actually speaking of [[Jacqueline Carey]] the [[Godslayer]] and [[Banewreaker]] boooks made me a little uncomfortable because i had thought of Tolkien and the race etc and i thought ooh why was i not aware of this and made me uncomfortable with my own lifetime of being blind about this. Another book would be [[L. Timmel Duchamp\|Timmi Duchamp]]'s [[Alanya to Alanya]] and [{Renegade]] coming out soon which was fantastically uncomfortable in a really great way. imprisonment and i read a lot of prison literature ... and the imprisonment that also happened in [[The Red Rose Rages (Bleeding)]] is bleeding and the interrogation prison scenes b/w women and the women analystic torturer captive were so intense and a really really good read makes you think about a lot of things. but difficult to keep reading. made me think a lot of things about my own life and ... seeing the depth to which i'm subject to patriarchy is almost unbearable ... the pressure of double consciousness ... it's almost difficult to bear and makes you go a little bit crazy until you cn integrate.		lh: of course i have a list like i'm sure everyone ... but i would mention actually speaking of [[Jacqueline Carey]] the [[Godslayer]] and [[Banewreaker]] boooks made me a little uncomfortable because i had thought of Tolkien and the race etc and i thought ooh why was i not aware of this and made me uncomfortable with my own lifetime of being blind about this. Another book would be [[L. Timmel Duchamp\|Timmi Duchamp]]'s [[Alanya to Alanya]] and [[Renegade]] coming out soon which was fantastically uncomfortable in a really great way. imprisonment and i read a lot of prison literature ... and the imprisonment that also happened in [[The Red Rose Rages (Bleeding)]] is bleeding and the interrogation prison scenes b/w women and the women analystic torturer captive were so intense and a really really good read makes you think about a lot of things. but difficult to keep reading. made me think a lot of things about my own life and ... seeing the depth to which i'm subject to patriarchy is almost unbearable ... the pressure of double consciousness ... it's almost difficult to bear and makes you go a little bit crazy until you cn integrate.

	aud: a book to add to list .. .[[Dhalgren]] by [[Samuel R. Delany\|Delany]]. it's so beautifully written but it's gritty in a way i'm not used to reading. i'm not used to reading a book about conscious of fact that this character hasn't written a book in a long time.		aud: a book to add to list .. .[[Dhalgren]] by [[Samuel R. Delany\|Delany]]. it's so beautifully written but it's gritty in a way i'm not used to reading. i'm not used to reading a book about conscious of fact that this character hasn't written a book in a long time.
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	katie: I'm sorry there's a couple of people who had hands up before you.		katie: I'm sorry there's a couple of people who had hands up before you.

	GR: I responded to paul a lot more uncomfortable about mainstream novels because they tend to pin me down much more horribly in here and now. terribly engineered choice in real world. ... [[Maul]] really ~~distrubed~~ me partly because i couldn't account for it.		GR: I responded to paul a lot more uncomfortable about mainstream novels because they tend to pin me down much more horribly in here and now. terribly engineered choice in real world. ... [[Maul]] really disturbed me partly because i couldn't account for it.

	lh: lori selke told me to read it so you should talk to her b/c she loved it passionately.		lh: lori selke told me to read it so you should talk to her b/c she loved it passionately.
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	pf: a novel that disturbed me greatly was [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]. Absolutely very disturbing exploration of power dynamics on various levels.		pf: a novel that disturbed me greatly was [[Nicola Griffith]]'s [[Slow River]]. Absolutely very disturbing exploration of power dynamics on various levels.

	aud: speaking of things that make people uncomfortable i remember being in movie theater watching [[28 Days (film)\|28 Days]] later a fully naked man in hospital with full frontal nudity ... audience with nervous titters & palpable unrest. i wondered about it - obviously - just grow up people are uncomfortable about this but listening to panel i'm trying to unpack who and why and obviously elements about het women being homophobic but also i wonder about het women in movie theater being forced to confront male sexual organs. but another dimension i also wonder about in our society the nude male body, the male penis can make people nervous.		aud: speaking of things that make people uncomfortable i remember being in movie theater watching "[[28 Days (film)\|28 Days]]" later a fully naked man in hospital with full frontal nudity ... audience with nervous titters & palpable unrest. i wondered about it - obviously - just grow up people are uncomfortable about this but listening to panel i'm trying to unpack who and why and obviously elements about het women being homophobic but also i wonder about het women in movie theater being forced to confront male sexual organs. but another dimension i also wonder about in our society the nude male body, the male penis can make people nervous.

	lh: the female penis can make people nervous too		lh: the female penis can make people nervous too
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	lh: i have a question - liked question about think about what you found uncomfortable ... productive discomfort vs. what you found yukky and uncomfortable.		lh: i have a question - liked question about think about what you found uncomfortable ... productive discomfort vs. what you found yukky and uncomfortable.

	aud: film [[Mysterious Skin (film]] i don't remember ...film by [[Gregg Araki]]. male homosexuality and child abuse difficult movie to watch but also really wonderful. a productive kind of discomfort. so i would recommend it highly.		aud: film [[Mysterious Skin (film)]] i don't remember ...film by [[Gregg Araki]]. male homosexuality and child abuse difficult movie to watch but also really wonderful. a productive kind of discomfort. so i would recommend it highly.

	aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?		aud: a very interesting sort of productive discomfort that i've found when i'm readina a text and it doesn't work. and it keeps needling back in tyour heart. 15 years ago reading a female gothic - normally sorts out in the end ... got to the end of this one and the ghost didn't work ... ghost wasn't ... eventually it was so productive i got half a phd out of it ... it took that long to explain why it didn't work ... it wasn't that it was bad ... it didn't work ... not badly written ... "passive many shadows" ?