Genre Tokenism Today (WisCon 31 panel)
Genre Tokenism Today: The New Octavia Butler was a panel at WisCon 31 (2007).
- Series: Politics, Race, Class, and Religion
- Location: Senate B
- Time: Saturday, 10:00-11:15 a.m.
Description: After the untimely death of the great writer Octavia E. Butler, some have asked who will take her place. A panel of African-descended women currently writing genre fiction addresses this question, talking about Octavia's oeuvre and their own: similarities, differences, market forces, and the pressures to model their contributions to the field on hers. How many ways is this question just plain wrong? Who has a vested interest in there being "an Octavia," new or old? What would "a new Octavia" look like? How does her literary legacy affect the field today, and how might it do so in the future? And how does this legacy relate to this disturbing question?
Panelists: M: Nora Jemison (moderator), K Tempest Bradford, Candra K. Gill, Nnedi Nkemdili Okorafor-Mbachu, Nisi Shawl
Reports, notes, discussions
- Transcript from Veejane: http://veejane.livejournal.com/319585.html
- tacithydra report
- coffeeandink's report
- Revena's report
- oyceter's report
- Cyborg Companion
transcript
Panel transcript notes from Liz Henry:
Genre Tokenism
Nisi Shawl, Candra K. Gill, Nora Jemison, K. Tempest Bradford, Nnedi Nkemdili Okorafor-Mbachu
introductions
Nora: Hi, my name is Nora and I am an Octavia.
Nisi: Hi, I'm Nisi, also the next Octavia. Like Octavia, I'm an author of SF, it's true, like Octavia, many of my ancestors came from Africa, like Octavia, I live in Seattle. Our style is completely different, She wrote very directly whereas I kind of tend to get entranced by the words. And our themes are different, etc. I write short stories mainly. "Cruel Sistah" last year in Year's Best. Writing the Other, non-fiction. How to write about someone who is a different race, or age, or gender, or religion, believably.
Candra: I'm Candra Gill, also the next Octavia, but ... not. I'm an amateur fiction writer, blogger, zinester, bookmaker, grew up an SF fan. Influenced by, do not plan to be, Octavia.
Nora Jemison. Published short stories, "Dragon Cloud Skies" won the ... Parallax? Er, was it the Kindred... I can never remember which is which... Grew up reading Anne McCaffrey, Le Guin, etc.
Aud (Liz): It was the Parallax.
Tempest: I'm not nearly as awesome as Octavia. I write interstitial fiction. I blog under the name Angry Black Woman. But I'm not angry today... Octavia was a great influence on me because I read her in high school, in a big English book, an excerpt. It was the first story that made me realize fiction could hurt.
Nnedi - Wrote Zarah the Windseeker. *audience cheers* Just got my doctorate in May, in English. *more audience cheers* I am not the next Octavia. I am the currrent Nnedi Okorafor-Mbachu. We're both tall... so there's that. I write predominantly black characters. There's that. I'm concerned with the feminist perspective, issues of genre. I do aspire to write in her sparse style. That's something I just loved about her work. I prefer writing novels to short stories. Where we differ is that I write young adult fantasy. But also the main focus of what I write has been that continent so all my stories tend to take place in Africa, in Nigeria.
panel discussion begins
Nora - i'll throw out a couple of trigger questions. Is this an appropriate question to ask? For example... would Barth Andersen for example be referred to as The Next Asimov? Why or why not? So whenever I (. . .) Is that an appropriate question?
Nnedi : Answer to that is complex. I'm in a Ph.D program, aside from getting backlash for writing fiction. The one thing people would say is "Oh your writing is similar to Octavia Butler" and that's not because it is, it's mostly because we're both black. And there's certain elements of her work that I really want to imitate. Other authors have influenced my work too, but that is never brought up. It's always Octavia, Octavia, Octavia, and it's because I'm black and she's black. There's no answer to it, but it's something to think about.
Nisi - It's an embarrassing question.
Nora - It's embarrassing to you or to the asker?
Nisi - It makes me want to say "Your fly is unzipped." What are they not asking? I want my writing to the be the love child between Gwyneth Jones, Raymond Chandler, and Collete. (laughter) But people on planes don't know that.
Candra - It's the why of the question. Why are they asking it. There should be *one* black female science fiction writer.
Nisi - There can only be one!
Candra - There's a shorthand of comparison. If you read a movie review, it's always comparing to something, it's the next whatever. It's laziness. Find something else to say. Comparisons are normal but when it's the only description . . .
Nora - If anyone WERE comparing Barth Anderson and Asimov it would be about style and the content. But this is about gender.
Nisi - Why only one... my style is actually closer to Chip Delany.
Nora - Chip Delany should get mentioned but Octavia's the one who gets taught in college classes.
Nnedi - Well there's only ONE. Black characters... black characters dealing with certain issues such as slavery. So it sort of makes sense that you get compared to the only one that's known. Playing devil's advocate?
Aud (Woman in pink shawl): So far you're asking that question as if it's being asked by a white person to you, a black women? Have you asked yourself that question?
Nisi - I was friends with her. So, no. And it made me feel horrible to get asked to do the things that she would have been asked to do. The public library needs a black female sf writer? Whoop, here's one! But yeah this question has been asked to me by other black women. By my sister, who is not a reader, let alone into SF. And it was like Martin Luther King and the black community waiting for the next MLK and then gradually realizing whoops that was him, there's not another one.
Nnedi - I do keep hearing that it's going to be Nalo. OH GEE such SIMILAR... *big audience laughter*
Tempest: When she died I knew that question was going to be asked. So I felt like we need to step this up a little bit so there can be 10 of us or 12 of us or a million. We can't let that "Oh she's the black woman of SF " thing continue.
Nora: I've heard that question more from black people than from white. I will say I would not have continued sending my work out as an SF writer, but one of the things that kept me going was that there was at least some room in the genre for stories other than the white male power (figure). So at least I have a chance. But I was never saying to myself I would be the next. It would be nice to write like her.
Aud: It's the notion there's only one space that's been made. And now there's an opportunity. And now I can take the space that's been allotted.
Nora - It's like getting a space in a New York co-op. It's wrong to feel like we're waiting for someone to die! And that the room was so narrow... we have to forge more...
Aud: When someone's a trailblazer it shouldn't be like there's one apartment now and it should instead be they've built a building!
Tempest: Tobias Buckell's post, saying that there's a chant when you bring up race or diversity in a forum there's this chant. Delany Butler Hopkins and Barnes. So you bring that up and people run out of the woodwork to say BUT! Delany! Butler! And part of the problem with that question is, how do we move past that reaction. So even if we bring it up, people construct walls really fast.
Candra - We've got 4! 4!
Nora - And if you count Tananarive... well they never do, that's interesting.
Shannon Clark - What about your name and what to readers assume about gender and name? I'm not sure of race or name or age from name. ( . . .) (Transcriber's note: An argument about genderblind and colorblind.
Nora - We often hear this about "We can't tell... therefore there is no discrimination because we can't tell from the name". But I've read some of the work by our panelists and there are particular themes that tend to come up of alienation, slavery, otherness. Can we tell?
Tempest: You look at the ways characters react to certain stimuli and you think "whoa". You feel like you can tell. And sometimes without knowing a black character was written by a white character and I go "You know, I bet that person's white".
Nora - I first came across Butler, in school, a Butler book cover with Lilith as white and then like 5 pages in I was like WHOA!!!! BLACK WOMAN WRITER!!!! *audience laughter* I could tell, and...sometimes you really can.
Nisi - I've written stories with no black characters and editors want them from me, and expect them and expect "black content" from me. And they determine what "black content" is.
Nora - Zora Neale Hurston, wrote a lot of race-neutral stuff and it gets lets attention. (List of some of Hurston's works)
Nisi - If you're going to be "An Octavia" you better write about what we think you should be writing. ("we" editors)
More audience participation
Aud: Might you be getting question out of fear? That if there isn't an Octavia, that the gains made would disapear.
Nora: That the hole will close up.
Lots of people: Mmmmmhmmmm.
Candra. Yes there is a perception of, for lack of a better word, permission. I grew up knowing that black women CAN write science fiction. I read this interview with Tom ( . . . ) of Rage against the Machine and he said he loved Living Colour (the band) b/c it gave permission for a black man to play guitar without being Jimi Hendrix.
Nnedi - There's so many of us out there who write sf and fantasy. It's not like we have to get down and start doing this stuff. We are out there. It needs to be out there a little more in people's faces, I think. It's definitely there and if you want to find it, it's easy to find.
Nisi - As you said, Nnedi, the person is, if they're not being polite, they'll say it's Nalo. Because she has more novels out and more recognition outside the field. What Nalo has done is to totally reject tokenism. She works as an editor. That is someone who really has power to make a building. Editing her several anthologies. She's doing things to make sure that people of color and others of other backgrounds are getting attention they deserve. And another thing she has done, when people come to her for anything related to Octavia, if she thinks its more appropriate for someone else to do it, then she refers them. She is actively rejecting the tokenism aspect of it. But actively constructing something good.
fantasy versus SF discussion begins
Constance D. - A black friend of mine submitted a novel to a group and they didn't think she was black because it was fantasy. Do you think about ... ?
Tempest - Well people say black people don't want to read sf, black people don't want to read fantasy. And to some extent that's bull. But to some extent it's true, because black people don't see themselves represented in the genre. Movies. TV. Black people don't see themselves represented in SF on tv. And it trickles down. We have to bust out and become major forces in the field. So that black people will see and say "Oh, there's more than one of them now? Well then maybe it's worth reading" and I would love black people in general to read more SF and fantasy.
Nora - And not just that sf and fantasy has this immense progressive and transfomative power. You can touch on myths other than elves and dwarves and stuff. *audience laughter* We have myths, we have futures, we should be reading this stuff too.
Nnedi - The year before, I was at the Gwendolyn Brooks conference in Chicago. a black writers' conference. (My perception was that there's this stigma in the black community. But until I went to that conference packed with black people and saw them worshiping at Octavia's feet, and after that conference my hope was restored.
Candra: It's a spaces issue. I don't think that black pople don't read sf. I was raised on the stuff. I am a geek by upbringing. And so, there's a difference between engaging with material in your home and then doing it with other people. A conference or a writers group is different. More visible. We are engaged with the material but we don't necessary, I'm sorry, want to go hang around with a bunch of white folks. How will you be treated, etc. Plus, the money issue.
Nisi - In the interests of counteracting the idea of one Octavia - I went to a thing at Smith College and it was a celebration of Smith's first black graduate. And there were FIVE women sf writers. You, me, Nnedi, Andrea Hairston, it was awesome. But when we were walking down the street I felt like the Monkees, you know? *laughter*
Nora: The idea behind Carl Brandon. Let me explain. People in the early days would run into each other in the halls and say "So where's Carl" to feel like there was another one (Another person of color in fandom)
aud (Sheila): Black sf writers trying to engage in other types of conferences. So maybe if there's a women of color reproductive justice conference or prison industrial complex thing do you all get asked? As a way of engaging the black community beyond SF conventions.
Candra: Yeah, we talked about the transformative power of SF and it's very appropirate to use them as illustrations in other arenas. There's a space to be intentional about that.
Nora - I went last year to a conference at Medgar Evers College in Brooklyn, a black literature conference. Walter Mosley, Sheree, Tananarive were there. And you're right. I saw a packed house full of black people who love spec fic but would never be caught dead in a place like this. They would go to where is a safe space. Introduce your writers' group (. . .) If people would realize and open the hole a bit ... broaden the scope a little. People could make some money off these people! I'm just saying!
Candra - For example a lot of american First Nations... [....] dismissed as magical realism ... they are writing SF but it doesn't get percieved as sf because their science doesn't get percieved as science!!
aud: MMMmmm.
Naamen - But tying into what Candra just said, I've hear Nalo's books get referred to a lot as magical realism but if it was a white author it woudl be called urban fantasy.
Nisi - Yeah. Not all science is made of metal. I consider them science. They're theories, they work, they're culturally transmitted, what's not scientific about this.
Naamen - Authors from Africa are being pushed to publish as magical realism.
Nnedi - yup.....
Candra - If it's good, it's magical realism! *laughter*
Tempest - Any non westernized culture, their stuff isn't science, it's magic.
Nnedi - I can't believe they call Nalo... you're talking about Brown Girl in the Ring?!
Naamen - No I'm talking about Moon in Arms.
Audience - Women of sf fantasy authors... (can't hear question)
Nora - Asian writers, yeah, maybe you're the next Ted Chiang. Or whatever. I'm sure. Yeah a lot of binary with black people representing people of color in toto and that's not right. Octavia brought forward as the example for all colored people.
how to recruit
Aud: Broad question to everybody. what can I do to make sure there's not just one next Octavia. What can we do to get more black people here.
Nisi: Join the Carl Brandon Society.
Panel: Read them.
Tempest: Find out what they're doing. I just started the Fem SF book swap. Once someone else takes it over, I will do the same for people of color. And it has reviews and discussion. Talk about, in public spaces, the works they like and why they like them.
Nisi - Join the Carl Brandon Society. You don't have to be a person of color to join it. I spent 15 min telling someone that last night. Octavia always credited her time at Clarion with getting her her start.
aud (Kate Schaefer): And she taught 3 years and then 5 years at Clarion West and she always gave a third of her fee back. She was always giving back.
Nisi: Don't cry, Kate. Workshops are good... Don't listen to people who tell you "You can't write fantasy"... write it! Parallax Award. Best speculative fiction by person of color in a year. Kindred Award by anyone. $1000 prize to the authors, attention by critics, short list and long list of recommended reading. Gets discussion going, brings notice.
Candra: Read the reading lists! Available at http://carlbrandon.org. Nominate! And we *will* be doing the award this year.
Kate: $1500 challenge grant from people who put on LAcon. For the Butler Scholarship fund. And I encourage people to match their own donation, to help fund the awards.
Nora - Write the publishers and editors. And Teresa Nielsen Hayden was saying that what helped with gay/les/bi/trans fiction was that it as getting bought thru gay bookstores. So buy your stuff from small black bookstores and that might help.
Moondancer: Writing is a market, publishers pay attention to what people say is popular. Artists. You can help the process by creating art that has people of color. Not necessarily people of color. There are so many women of color, so many rich cultures for people to learn about and write about.
S.M.G.: If you teach, and make it required reading, depending on the course. Just add one book, or an anthology, add into the course syllabus, the publishers get this mass demand. That's another way.
Jackie (read by Naamen since Jackie has laryngitis): Like Audre Lorde, held up as (last black woman) theory writer...
Nora : We won't let that happen.
aud (guy): If you're in a reading group, get them to read something from the Carl Brandon list. I'm faculty at a university and they would not touch SF but I might be able to get them to read "magical realism" or maybe the Dark Matter anthology.
Nnedi - Yeah I know a lot about that. Hiding behind the mantle of magical realism. That's what I did, for years. just call it magical realism and make sure it's really GOOD and you should have no problem.
Nisi - You don't have to say it's about *that* you can say it's a novel about blindness , or prison issues, or...
Candra: You can say it's the next Cormac Mccarthy. *laughter*
aud: You can say it's the next Philip Roth.
- big laughter*
Question, who benefits from there being A Next Octavia?
Nora: final thoughts:
Nnedi: Sitting here with you guys talking about Octavia makes me all emotional all over again. She was wonderful, she really was. It is just good that she left us with so many books to read. So we can go back. But I just miss her. Octavia was just Octavia and there is not going to be another Octavia. She is one of a kind. And there are lots of us out there doing stuff too so keep an eye out.
Tempest. Read, review, put it out there. The more chatter there is about this stuff, the more it will raise the level. We all become the new Octavia, not that we replace her, but we all become as sharp as her and as talented. Not that we're not already. But that's the part *I* want.
Nora: and that level of influence. we've seen a lot of conv about this for years int he blogosphere. don't let those people be a few black people defending themselves against the ravening horde. if you care then state your case. make it very clear you also support this issue and it's not just us wanting in. say that you want us in.
Candra: Part of what tokenism is is a kind of laziness. "Well I've had the one so I don't have to have any more." But there are multiple perspectives. Listen when people take down sacred cows. Listen to the different voices out there.
Nisi: I'm really really encouraged by the turnout for this panel on a Saturday morning. And by your question of what can we do? I'm so appreciative of this desire for a change. What really caused me to lose it sometimes is that Octavia lived her life every single freaking minute so that she would be remembered as a great woman, down to the way she spread the margarine on her bread in the morning, and that was her way of dealing with the fact that she was going to die someday. There will not be anyone like that I think. But we can aspire to be that great.
Nora - We have 3 minutes left.
Aud (Rosalyn Wiggins Berne): I was academic and am new to this world and I didn't know we were here, and I felt very alone. And I only knew about Octavia and I saw her picture on the web and I stared at it and I thought "I can". And today I can't tell you what it's like to see your faces. So thank you and I'm not good at saying this but it would make me very happy if you would come to my reading at midnight.
- laughter*
Tempest: Will there be coffee?
Aud: If I can come to yours at 10am, you can come to mine at midnight.
- appreciative laughter*
Aud: Request books through your local library. Consider donating books to your school library. I noted a bunch of you talked about the difference that made to you when you were growing up.
Aud (Shannon Clark): What you should do is be great writers and tell great stories. Without considering color. And as readers we'll be appreciating that.
Aud (Sheila): The digital divide. Not everyone has access to online stuff. It creates a schism that is difficult for people to get out of. Creative ways to get info to people who don't have access.
Aud (A guy): Bouncing off what Tempest said. Books through bars. They send books to peple who are poor in prison.
Aud (Moondancer): Making an impact: I want you to know that I want . . . you know that I spoke to each and every one of you . . . In the last year I've written 5 novels who have people of color as protagonists *audience laughter* and I'm Cherokee and my people in sf are basically non-existent. We may not be there and I'm gonna do it and each and every one of you gave me the strength to do that and you DID make a difference.
Aud (Eldvondin): The labyrinth girls last night. All the young girls in the labryinth were written by men. And to fill that void, Zarah was put forth unanimously.